SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

So I had a conversation yesterday with a couples therapist my IC recommended. It wen't well and there were many things I liked about him. There is also what I believe to be a red flag that I wanted to get your opinion's on.

What I liked:

He said the way he goes about therapy is to see each person individually, and also together so that both people can feel heard, and then we can have a guided conversation together. I really like this idea. He was also careful to maintain a position of neutrality, and says it's important for a couples therapist to make both people feel equally represented and heard. I also think this is really good. He has been a family therapist for 25 years, and said he has worked with probably 100 couples struggling with infidelity. He said he has a high success rate among those he has worked with.

Potential red flag:

After answering some of my other questions in a way that made me a little concerned about how he would go about handing the adultery. I directly asked him if he thought the marriage could cause adultery. He said that it could be a reason, but that doesn't justify it. I pressed him a little more, saying that she made this choice, and asked if he focusses more on the reason for the infidelity, or on the choice she made to cheat. He said that it could be either, or both, and that he would probably focus on the reason. He said that she has things she wants addressed as well so we would have to look at that.

Honestly I'm very conflicted here. I liked many of the things he said, and I think he could be a really good MC, but I am also extremely reluctant to sit down and discuss her complaints about the marriage after being subjected to ten months of this every time the affair comes up in discussion. I also don't believe the marriage caused her to cheat.

Don't get me wrong I am willing to change things for her, I have done that already actually, but I don't want to be wasting my time going down the wrong path in MC with someone who is going to try to "fix the marriage" instead of addressing her choice to have an affair.

I get that he wants her to feel like he is unbiased and will represent us equally. I think thats a good thing. But I don't know how that can happen when the reason I want MC is because of her infidelity. It seems naturally biased because of that. Maybe because of this existing bias I should try to bring her in to sessions with my IC (he also does MC)?

She wants MC so we can discuss issues "we" had in our marriage that she didn't feel comfortable bringing up till AFTER she cheated on me. I think there is the typical wawyard stuff happening here as user grubs pointed out on my other post, and is mentioned in HTHYSHFYA:

1. Amplify the negatives (negative sentiment override). Nothing you do will be good enough for her.
2. Rewrite the history of the relationship. Often combines with #1. Often gets to translated to I never really cared for the person I'm stabbing in the back.
3. Shifting the blame (What's shes really doing) Reduces guilt and avoids self-reflection
4. idealizing the alternative. this one's easy as APs seldom have to deal with the nitty gritty of life with another.

Right now I'm feeling really discouraged about finding any MC that will actually address the affair and the damage it caused to our relationship. It seems like the whole world, with the exception of SI, believe in the unmet needs fallacy, and is going to try to address "problems in the marriage" instead of looking at why they made that choice in the first place, or trying to uncover the ways she is rewriting history or justifying.

Wondering if I'm barking up the wrong tree here looking for a MC and maybe there is another path I should be taking? Or maybe I should give him a chance? Maybe this "red flag" is not really a red flag.

What I would like is for my WW to have a deep, honest, thorough discussion with a therapist about her affair. And I get to listen in, perhaps ask questions.

Not gonna happen.

What I would like is for my WW to have a deep, honest, thorough discussion with a therapist about her affair. And I get to listen in, perhaps ask questions.

Not gonna happen.

So what's my alternative then? Do I just accept that she isn't going to address the things that caused her to act this way? Or hope that she is addressing them in IC without seeing any evidence?

Did you ask this therapist what they feel about "unmet needs" leading to infidelity? If this guy gives even 1% support for this fallacy, dump him and keep searching until you find one that says "absolutely not". Ignore at your peril.

Gr8ful

It seems like asking if the marriage could cause the infidelity is essentially asking that.

What is your goal in seeking MC?

How do you define 'successful MC'?

*****

Your M didn't fail. Your WS did. IMO, the pre-eminent pre-A issue is that your W ended up cheating. The first thing to do is for her to start changing herself from cheater to good partner. This guy doesn't look like a C who'll confront that reality.

It's great that you recognized the red flag. I think you're treating the red flag as if it's yellow. It's not. It's red. Red lights mean STOP.

IMO, you see red flags in your W. Are you changing them into yellow?

*****

IMO, it's a waste of time and energy to deal with pre-A issues in the M.

If your W changes from cheater to good partner, some of those issues will go away. If you don't split, the real issues will come up again, and you can resolve them when they do.

*****

IMO, you need to give up trying to control the outcome. That's an impossible task. If I'm right that you're trying to control the outcome, you're dooming yourself to failure. Please don't do that to yourself.

Hi sisoon

I think you're treating the red flag as if it's yellow. It's not. It's red. Red lights mean STOP.

I think you are correct here. I'm trying to make this red flag yellow because I like this therapist and his methodology.

IMO, you see red flags in your W. Are you changing them into yellow?

Like you say, red flags mean STOP. For me stopping with my wife is giving up on the marriage and divorcing.

She hasn't done anything (new) that has made me want to do that. As far as I know she is not engaging in further affair behavior and she is making efforts to change. I have complained about the slow progress I see on this front several times here on SI, and accepted a lot of the kind advice people have shared about being patient and allowing her time to change. So it looks like I'm yellow flagging it for a bit, but I am curious what you see as a red flag? I'm likely partially blinded by emotion still.

If your W changes from cheater to good partner, some of those issues will go away.

This is my struggle I guess. I don't fully understand what changing from cheater to good partner looks like in this context.

What does it mean to you? Can you list examples of someone who hasn't changed, and someone who has?

If I'm right that you're trying to control the outcome, you're dooming yourself to failure. Please don't do that to yourself.

What I thought I was doing was trying to put good boundaries in place. E.g. seeing genuine change, and that she is addressing these issues.

Again I could totally be fooling myself here as well.

What would be an example of me NOT trying to control outcome, and one of me trying TO control it? What would I do differently? Just sit back and see what happens?

I really appreciate all of your (and others) advice I've been given on these forums. It really helps.

Please don't take any of this is argumentative. I really am just trying to figure out how to navigate this storm.

What would be an example of me NOT trying to control outcome, and one of me trying TO control it? What would I do differently? Just sit back and see what happens?

Not controlling the outcome looks like setting boundaries AND KEEPING THEM. Like "I will not remain married to an unremorseful adulterer", as an example (hopefully you understand true remorse is not merely mumbling "I’m sorry" but instead is one who is fully focused on and empathetic with YOUR pain & suffering in all of this).

You’ve committed to R, but does that mean you stick with her if she cheats again? And again? I sure hope not. That would be a boundary: "I refuse to remain in a marriage with a serial adulterer". Or "I will not remain in this marriage if I don’t see her change in [these] specific ways by date X", or "I will not remain in this marriage if I don’t feel she’s a safe partner 12 months from now". Obviously, you must determine your own boundaries.

This way the outcome is ALSO on her, and not merely on you. You CANNOT control her, but there are things she must do and ways she must change if your R is to succeed. You didn’t cheat. She did. She NEEDS to do the work, else you’re going to be absolutely miserable the rest of your life. I urge you to read on those who post decades later, where they rug-swept. You’ll never see such regret anywhere else. Don’t be that guy.

Right now you’re trying to force the outcome - a successful R. YOU CANNOT FORCE THAT. She must be willing to "crawl over broken glass" (in attitude AND action) to do the MONUMENTAL work of changing her character and integrity. Some, and I do mean *some* adulterers do that. Don’t assume that’s the norm, because people who betray those they’ve publicly vowed to be faithful to and love are by nature incredibly selfish and self-serving. SOMETHING near miraculous must occur to radically change them to be the opposite. It CAN happen, but again, it’s not common.

As always, the saying is true: you MUST be willing to lose the marriage to save it. She needs to know your expectations, and your boundaries. If you struggle with this, start IC. They can help.

I wish you the best.

I’m still "freshish" to infidelity and definitely not able to provide much for "expert" advice as I’m still learning so much myself, but I thought I might chime in with my experience.

I made a post not too long ago along the lines of what role a (bad) marriage plays in infidelity and/or if it contributes to it (something like this). While I can’t quite remember everyone’s response, one key point did stand out to me.

Essentially, while a "bad" M can’t make someone cheat, the deterioration of an M over time is a two way street, thus, leaving the M in a vulnerable state. While there are different factors that come into play for everyone’s situation, I for one can resonate with the fact that my M had greatly deteriorated to the point it became vulnerable to an array of mass destruction (not just infidelity). I understand this isn’t everybody’s experience, but this represents my story.

I’m not saying I personally played a part in my H’s choice to cheat, that is 100% on him. However, I did play a part in the deterioration of my M, I played a part in making my M vulnerable and I didn’t protect my M the way I should have. I took path A in handling it, while my H took path B. Both paths were wrong … one of these paths ended up being life shattering.

Could it be that this is what your WW is trying to communicate?

Again, this is a very personal journey for everyone and you might not agree with my interpretation and that’s ok. My H had a very similar thinking to your WW early on, so I very much understand your frustration with her. She really really needs to do some deeper digging on her whys.

She wants MC so we can discuss issues "we" had in our marriage that she didn't feel comfortable bringing up till AFTER she cheated on me.

I think MC definitely is meant to discuss marital issues, but these said "issues" are on the back burner for an indefinite period until you feel comfortable with her efforts in owning that the A was 100% her choice, she’s delved into her whys, she’s genuinely remorseful and empathetic of her actions towards you/her family, she’s making changes to show you she can be a safe partner, etc. Once you feel that you’ve got a good grasp on these things, other areas of the M can be looked at.

Also, you can always give it a go with this MC and go from there. Maybe you keep researching other MC who have a background in infidelity. I’m in Canada and we get free 15 minute phone consultations where we can ask questions, etc. Not sure if they offer this where you are, but maybe you could reach out in this way and interview potential MC to see what their view is regarding marriage and the role it plays in infidelity. If you don’t like their response, file it in the trash until you find someone who checks off your boxes. You have a clear picture of what you’re looking for and needing out of an MC, no need to settle.

There are some really great MC out there. We lucked out and found a phenomenal one right outta the gate. They are more of a rare breed, but they do exist.

[This message edited by Heartbrokenwife23 at 10:50 PM, Saturday, March 1st]

I see possible red flags from your W, but you know better than I do. I do think there's a chance you are changing red to yellow.

For example:

MC treats the M, and the M didn't fail. So why MC?

a WS needs to take responsibility for themself to change from cheater to good partner, but your W still blames you, at least in part for her cheating - and you let her.

You say you may work with this MC because you like him and his method - but his method doesn't start with the A - and it says the M may have caused the A.

Those examples concern me. I'm not saying R will fail. I'm saying you need to make sure you're acting in your best interests.

Signs of a healing WS include:

In general, approaching life with an attitude of 'I betrayed the person I love, and that is not the person I want to be. I want to start being true to myself and to others.'

Some observable behaviors include:

NC - no contact with ap; if ap initiates contact, report to BS and together decide how to respond

Transparency - BS has passwords to e-mail, voice-mail, phones, etc.; WS keeps BS informed of whereabouts, activities, and companions at virtually all times

Honesty - WS answers BS's questions when they're asked, although sometimes a break is necessary, sometimes an answer is best deferred to MC session, etc., no more lies.

IC for WS - to change the thoughts and feelings that supported the A, with signed release that enables C to talk with BS about WS's goals and progress (so the BS can make sure WS's IC isn't being lied to).

IC for BS - for support - and for resolving any internal issue that comes up

MC - to help communications between the partners, if one or both partners want MC

Some (Most?) people have individual requirements - my W had to arrange dates for us on a weekly basis and must initiate sex sometimes. What do you want from your W?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:02 PM, Sunday, March 2nd]

MC is for two honest dealers. Most WS are still lying as early on as you are.

Yours doesn't seem to be an exception.

I think this MC is going to treat adultery as one of many issues. Little different than you leaving socks around the house.

Since your wife doesn't want the relationship as much as you, she has the power in this type of MC. They don't care who capitulates or how many times, just that you "both" agree to the path forward.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 3:22 AM, Monday, March 3rd]

Similar to you, I had hoped that MC would be a place where I would be helped. Where a neutral, authoritative third party would speak sense to my wife, point out her bullshit and make her come to her senses.

Sorry man, that doesn’t happen.

At least not in my world. Went thru a carousel of MC’s. None helped, most did damage. All refused to treat her as an unreliable narrator. That desire for neutrality you admire has no valid place when there is a real victim facing off with their true offender.

No one on God’s green earth can force a liar to tell the truth. I don’t hold that against an MC. What I hold against them is the failure to even recognize the real problem.