SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi Folks,

Been lurking here for a few days. I am in the "Sexually Abused/Spouses" forum mostly. So if you know your WS has been Sexually abused or since childhood that is an amazing forum.

My WH was sexually abused since childhood. The comment someone posted about enabling and all the giving til you are a vegetable is my story. I was that person, who did everything in the house, did all for the kids. Then 4 years ago, started taking care of my parents who got the big C. (same time - leukemia and my dad was kidney/lung/brain tumors). I was overweight from my super baby pregnancy in 2011. Just gave up on myself taking care of everyone else. During that time my WH's previous IC just told him to stop coming. I never got the details. All this time I was trying to get him back into a new IC. I was over the top-spent. I hated myself too. My kids elementary school had this adorable principal i used to fantasize about. Mostly how life would be better!! So TEXTBOOK CLASSIC CODA (We called ourselves CODA back in my day versus Co Dep) Anyhoo, i never gave up on my IC and I see her weekly now versus bi-weekly. I attend a weekly CoDependent meeting. I am back as a Gym Rat. My WH is seeing one of the best Therapist's in the bay area for PTSD. He is doing his shit. I am doing mine. Letting go is super hard. But then you realize if you let people help you it isn't so bad after all. If you grew up extremely neglected this is a tough one to trust anyone to the job better than you.

I am learning a lot about myself reading this...

Deep breaths.

I suspected I was codependent... and think we both may be.

My head is hurting with all of this uncovering the truth.

So once you realise you are codependent how do you move on in the reconciliation process?

I discovered this thread yesterday and read it all and it was such a revelation that I felt it was mind blowing. I recognised myself completely including the childhood where I had to grow up too quickly and take care of others due to an alcoholic and abusive father.

So I suddenly felt relieved and my fear of abandonment vanished. I realised it is all in my head and there is a reason behind it. I detached. I recognised that in fact I am happier when he's not around, something that I denied myself to admit and forced myself into anxiety moods (where is he, what is he doing?), I realised I want to control the outcome of our marriage and I am leading him all the way instead of letting go and accepting that if he doesn't do what I need then it may be over but that is a good thing, I shouldn't be with someone who's not able to meet my needs.

So I have done all this introspective work yesterday and last night and I felt better, obviously now I know I have a lot of work to do on myself so the first question is how do you stop being dragged back into the control conversations?

Example: this morning he woke up and he was tearful saying I had nightmares last night all night, I was crying in my sleep and he apologised for putting me in this situation, bringing awful nights on me and he felt he didn't do enough last night, he should have woken me up and talk to me.

We then had an honest conversation which somehow turned to his needs, basically him stating that in order to meet my needs he needs his met first. That literally filled me up with anger, how can somebody who had an affair be so blind and not understand that my needs, seeing him that he fights for me, come first in this situation?

It all comes from me saying I don't see any actions, just words, he was meant to book a weekend away for just the two of us and he now says he's scared to spend 4 days with me because we always argue. We argue because I don't feel he's doing much to make me feel that he is fighting to save us. He's not doing anything to save us because we argue.

Bottom line I got dragged back into controlling mode, trying to control the outcome again, telling him what he needs to do and so on.

How do these conversations happen in your relationship? Do I need to shut them down? And if so is it rug sweeping? And if I shut them down doesn't that mean I am again meeting his needs of not talking about it above mine?

To Luna and any others.... keep working at knowing that it is a good thing that you have recognized that you might be CoDep, but it is another to learn to implement any tools that are needed to start some kind of change. So like any hard addiction to over come, and CoDep is an addiction of its own making.... you need to take these things one item at a time.

My advice, go back and read the 180 list in the Healing Library. Even if you are not new here, maybe you have been at it for a couple months and you THINK you know more...go back and read that 180, print it out. Put it up on your mirror or tuck it in your purse or tape it on your dashboard but go back and truly read it and try to implement the items there.

And then try to understand that the 180 is for YOU, not to punish the WS, but to learn how to be your own person again.

You are not a bad person, for some reason that was hard for me too to really get and understand. You did not cause the A or are to blame for the A, but to get out of infidelity you will have to learn to get out of being CoDep. That is the hard part to grasp.

So the 180 list is a very good tool to start. If you look at the list and think you can't do any of them, you are probably CoDep. Work 1 or 2 or 3 items and cross them off after you feel you have accomplished them.

I’m a codependent woman who was raised in a home with an alcoholic serial cheating father who is now very ill. Not surprisingly, I married a serial cheating man. I feel I don’t try to control WH and he agrees. However, many of the other codependent patters and traits fit me: low self-esteem, compliance, avoidance.

Things I’m tired of doing:

1. Letting my good or bad day depend on whether or not WH is happy that day

2. Continuing to crave and not receive compassion from WH for my pain (some inflicted by him, some not)

3. Not taking care of myself

4. Waiting until it is too late before trying to make plans that are important to me

5. Trying to be good enough to earn love, respect and compassion

6. Blaming myself for not being good enough when WH is actually unable to care

@unbelievable24

Things I’m tired of doing:

1. Letting my good or bad day depend on whether or not WH is happy that day

2. Continuing to crave and not receive compassion from WH for my pain (some inflicted by him, some not)

3. Not taking care of myself

4. Waiting until it is too late before trying to make plans that are important to me

5. Trying to be good enough to earn love, respect and compassion

6. Blaming myself for not being good enough when WH is actually unable to care 

Have you had a chance to think about why your moods are dependent on your WH's moods?

Have you expressed to your WH how hurtful his lack of compassion is to you, and if so what has his reaction been? Has this been his pattern throughout your relationship?

In what ways are you not taking care of yourself, and why not?

What are the reasons that you put off plans for yourself until it's too late?

Instead of trying to earn love,respect and compassion externally, wouldn't it make more sense to love, respect and have compassion for yourself? Why do you feel that you need those things from outside sources rather than from within?

Why do you feel "not good enough"? How long have you felt that way? Have you read any of Brene Brown's books on shame and vulnerability yet?

I noticed from your other posts that you have been listening to both "Self-Compassion" by Kristin Neff and "The New Codependency" by Melody Beattie. I think you will find both of them very helpful.

Onlytime - Thanks for responding to both of my posts. That is very kind. You ask great, thought-provoking questions. I answered in this very long post. It was good work for me.

Have you had a chance to think about why your moods are dependent on your WH's moods? I think this is from FOO – my dad was a raging alcoholic until I was in my twenties. I always thought if I could be a little better, he would not get angry. My mom did the same thing when he lived with us, and her dad was the same way when she grew up. She tried so hard to avoid conflict, as did I.

Have you expressed to your WH how hurtful his lack of compassion is to you, and if so what has his reaction been? Has this been his pattern throughout your relationship? This has been a pattern in our relationship. After DDay in May, he did start comforting me. He is over it now. Recently, it was because my family was making life and death decisions regarding my dad. I thought he was dying. My husband wouldn’t even put his arms around me when I cried. (I only cried about it one time, too, it’s not as if I cried all day every day.) I did express my sadness at this in a way. Actually, I said, “What is so bad about me that I don’t even deserve compassion, that you can look at me while I cry in such pain and not feel anything?” He turned his head to look at me for a moment and then turned to look forward (away from me) again, not responding at all.

In what ways are you not taking care of yourself, and why not? This one is complicated in my mind. I am ill; I have Cushing ’s disease caused by a tumor in my head. It caused me to gain 80 pounds. I’m embarrassed and ashamed. It also affects mood and cognition. I’m in the final stages of testing before scheduling a serious surgery. I am so overwhelmed. When I get time to myself, I’ve started just feeling sad and watching tv so I don’t have to think or feel. I know this is not healthy. Today, I set a daily step goal for myself. It is nowhere near what I used to do, but I feel it is achievable. It is tough to try to take care of yourself physically when you cannot see results even if you try. However, I am going to do the right thing, one day at a time. I need to be as healthy as possible going into surgery.

What are the reasons that you put off plans for yourself until it's too late? I think I feel I don’t deserve to be happy and have fun.

Instead of trying to earn love, respect and compassion externally, wouldn't it make more sense to love, respect and have compassion for yourself? Why do you feel that you need those things from outside sources rather than from within? Great question – that’s why I’m here I’m not trying to be flippant. I do feel I need to work through this. Just an FYI: I am going back to IC Wednesday. I’m going to explore these questions. I will take the questions and answers with me.

Why do you feel "not good enough"? How long have you felt that way? Have you read any of Brene Brown's books on shame and vulnerability yet? I listened to Brene’s books years ago, and I need to listen to them with a fresh mindset. I’ll do that when I finish the other two books mentioned below. I think I’ve felt this way since my teens if not before. When I was young, I was very shy. I was scared of saying or doing the wrong thing. My dad’s sister used to call me ugly. It was the only way she could get me to talk. I would defend myself against being called ugly, but I think this made a bigger impact than I realized. Dad and his sisters would also have loud screaming matches about whose kids were worst. (Not whose kids were better – interesting, huh?) I’ve turned out to be the most successful financially, and I’ve been married second longest. We’re probably all screwed up though.

I have these Brene Brown books: Daring Greatly, I Thought It Was Just Me, The Power of Vulnerability, The Gifts of Imperfection, Rising Strong. It looks like I listened to all of these in 2015. She is fantastic, and I think I first learned of her from a TED talk.

I noticed from your other posts that you have been listening to both "Self-Compassion" by Kristin Neff and "The New Codependency" by Melody Beattie. I think you will find both of them very helpful. Thanks. Thanks for the votes of confidence!

I wish my IC was available on Sundays

My wife has mentioned codependency during our A R,

I thought I knew the definition of this word but I did not completely until this morning.

My head is spinning..."information overload."

Denial is another word as an adult I thought I understood but didn't have a solid grasp until my A and the continued attempt to R.

My wife has been upset because she hasn't felt I have done real work....she is right and this one list (below) of many others I feel were written about me, scream to me how much more work I have to do before I am healthy.

I am on a high right now, despite the hill I have to climb but at least I can see a path compared to before when I felt like someone dropped me out of a plane in the middle of the night and told me to climb to the top of the mountain.

Thank you for sharing this

Denial

Codependents tend to:

1. Ignore problems or pretend they aren't happening.

2. Pretend circumstances aren't as bad as they are.

3. Tell themselves things will be better tomorrow.

4. Stay busy so they don't have to think about things.

5. Get confused.

6. Get depressed or sick.

7. Go to doctors and get tranquilizers.

8. Become workaholics.

9. Spend money compulsively.

10. Overeat.

11. Pretend those things aren't happening either.

12. Watch problems get worse.

13. Believe lies.

14. Lie to themselves.

15. Wonder why they feel like they're going crazy.

Even though I feel I've kicked my codependent nature largely to the curb, this thread needs to be boosted up. There are so many people on SI who would benefit.

This is by far the most helpful thread I’ve read on SI. I’m amazed by how much I can relate to it. Thank you for enlightening me.

Even though I feel I've kicked my codependent nature largely to the curb, this thread needs to be boosted up. There are so many people on SI who would benefit.

You've worked so hard on overcoming your codependency tess, and I am glad you are in a healthier place now!

Thanks for bumping this thread up. I agree that there are many people on SI who would benefit, and hopefully they will find this info and start on their own healing journey.

Like I've said before, I believe on the original thread that was in General (http://www.survivinginfidelity.com/forums.asp?tid=573775), doing the work on my codependency has been life changing for me. I will be forever grateful to the IC that got me to see it in myself, as it has led me to a better life, one that I never could have imagined!

I totally agree that this whole thread and posts from others was so helpful to me, is STILL helpful to me when just one person writes something that you go "Ah Hah!, lightbulb moment"

The gaslighting that goes on while living with a WS who continues to deny, lie and hide is crazy making for any BS. Its painful, its so hard to over come because if they won't admit it, or you can't find the exact proof, or you are just overwhelmed that you don't know up from down any more.... just go back and read this thread, read it from the beginning even if you already have. Lots of good nuggets of information and pearls of wisdom that might help just 1 one person.

I am also thankful for this post.

I started attending phone/online meetings of Codependents anonymous. I think I really need it and wish I'd done it years ago (would not have stopped my WH from being a liar and cheater, but may have helped me cope better during the immediate aftermath.... it's a work in progress).

A few weeks ago I was in a meeting that focused on some modifications to the Golden Rule (these were in CoDa, I recognize that other groups/schools of thought have different definitions). Anyhow, these resonated with me (and I think I've got them correct), and I'm trying to incorporate into my thinking:

Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Silver Rule: "Do for yourself as you would do for others"

Lead Rule: "Do not do for others what they can do for themselves".

I just love this. Especially the lead rule, and especially when it comes to my WH.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 10:22 AM, June 29th, 2018 (Friday)]

A few weeks ago I was in a meeting that focused on modifications to the Golden Rule (these were in CoDa, I recognize that other groups/schools of thought have different definitions). Anyhow, these resonated with me (and I think I've got them correct), and I'm trying to incorporate into my thinking:

Golden Rule: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Silver Rule: "Do for yourself as you would do for others"

Lead Rule: "Do not do for others what they can do for themselves".

Thanks for sharing this gmc94.

There may be posts on this thread about this already, but I am struggling with codependency in the context of reconciliation.

Clearly, having a spouse that would break my #1 boundary (and for so long) is NOT healthy.

So how does that work - at least on an intellectual level?

Is it that the relationship has been unhealthy in the past and the work in CoDa is to set my boundaries and change/grow for the FUTURE?

I think I "get" that I cannot control the outcome to the extent I cannot control what my WH does, whether or not he chooses to become a safe partner, etc.

But I DO control the outcome as to what I'm willing to tolerate....

I don't know. Maybe I'm just trying to seek external validation of the sense that my WH's behavior WRT the OW is just not w/in my range of tolerance, and the only option I really have is to S/D.

It's not just the PA, but the fact that he kept this person secret from me since day 1. He clearly sees it differently - says there was no "connection" (WTF that means) until 10-15 years ago. But at the end of the day, I'm not sure that matters. The very fact that he never told me of her existence, and never told me that they were in contact may be outside of my range of forgiveness... which is kind of odd in that I believe I can forgive the PA (and I have kind of resolved that I will do so - if for no other reason than my own peace).

I am VERY stuck on the secret of another woman in his life - even if they only communicated/met in person very sporadically - since we first dated and lived together. It really defies my comprehension, and he cannot come up with any reason to keep her secret. He says he's "working on it" but wanted to go back and look at his timeline and some other stuff - I don't see how his timeline has anything to do with the root issue of keeping a former lover a secret from your wife for a decade+ before there was any "connection" or "anything significant" going on. There is NO OTHER PERSON in his life that he has done this with... and of course the ONE person he kept secret ultimately became his AP. The only reason to keep her secret is because he WANTED to keep her secret.... so why would he do that? Not sure it matters - because he lusted after her? because he knew that I would ask questions he didn't want to answer? Does it really matter? Our marriage began with a huge crack in the foundation... and 24 years later, that crack (which was 100% his doing) has now caused the entire house to crash around - no, on TOP of - us (or maybe just me, as he still can look fondly on all the good things in our M w/o any grief or sense of loss.... a good time is still a good memory for him.... I do not feel that way at all).

I guess I'm venting. I feel very lost right now. My gut has said since dday that I can't stay in the M... I feel I'm trying my best to be open to healing and moving through together (I really do love him), but I am in a bad place. The depth of the deception goes back to the years before we were even married, and it casts a dark shadow over the past 27years of my life.

[This message edited by gmc94 at 12:12 AM, July 3rd, 2018 (Tuesday)]

Is it that the relationship has been unhealthy in the past and the work in CoDa is to set my boundaries and change/grow for the FUTURE?

The way I look at it is this...

We cannot change the past, but we can set boundaries and work on growth and healing in the present, because that is the only moment we really have.

Once we have determined what our boundaries are and what we are not willing to tolerate, it is important that we make them clear to the other person, explain what the consequences are for violating them, and then back up our words with actions, if those boundaries are breached.

It is also important for us to do the work on healing ourselves, getting to the root of why we have become codependent, what the payoff for this behaviour has been to us, and healing ourselves. Whether our current relationship works out or not, we need to be healthy for ourselves, or we will keep repeating the same cycle over and over again in the future.

I feel very lost right now. My gut has said since dday that I can't stay in the M... I feel I'm trying my best to be open to healing and moving through together (I really do love him), but I am in a bad place.

I would explore what it is that you love about him? Are those feelings based on who he is? Who you thought he was? Or, who you want him to be?

I think once you can figure that out, you may have a better sense of direction.

I hope this helps.

Thank you onlytime.

what it is that you love about him? Are those feelings based on who he is? Who you thought he was? Or, who you want him to be?

I guess I'm not sure. I think a lot is the horror at giving up what had been a good partnership in so many ways and for so long. I felt he was my BFF in all things. He knows me like no other.

Yet - that's not really answering the question.

What DO I love about him any more?

Right now, I don't think any of it is based on who he REALLY is.. I don't know who that is anymore, and I don't think he does either.

Who I THOUGHT he was? absolutely

who I WANT him to be.... probably.

I need to work on this.

what the payoff for this behaviour has been to us

I don't know. At this point, I'd say it gave me an entirely false sense of safety and control.

It allowed me to form an identity that was too intertwined with my M and my WH (which has been really tough for me since dday - recognizing that my M is only one part of my life as a whole, and thinking otherwise does not serve me).

Hard work ahead.... thanks

I just thought I'd share some of the things I learned about myself during my recovery from CoD gmc94.

When I was exploring the roots of why I was codependent there were a number of things that came up for me, some of which were tied into my (then untreated) mental health issues, namely Borderline Personality Disorder and Complex-PTSD.

Two of the biggest drivers of my codependency were fear of abandonment and a non-existent sense of self-worth, followed very closely by an intense need to have a feeling of control in my life, and for things to be "perfect".

My codependency evolved gradually, so much so that I didn't even see it happening. My relationship with BetterFuture13 started out on equal footing, but little by little it developed into an unhealthy, codependent, parent-child relationship.

In hindsight, I can see that it began with me doing little things to "help" - making sure he didn't sleep past the alarm so he wouldn't be late for work, taking care of all of the bills so I could help him rebuild his credit, setting up doctor's appointments for him and making sure he did his yearly physical - things like that. Small stuff. And good wives do those things for their husbands, right?!

And he thanked me for it - "Thanks for making sure I wasn't late for work", "Thank you for working so hard to build my credit up, we wouldn't have been able to buy this house if it weren't for you doing that", "Thanks for getting me in to see the doc so quickly". I felt appreciated. I felt needed. I felt loved. It gave me a sense of self-worth.

Subconsciously though there was still that intense fear of abandonment lurking, and gradually it evolved into not just wanting to be needed, but wanting to feel indispensable. There was no way he would abandon me if I could make myself indispensable, right?! He would just love me all that much more, right?!

Around this time his drinking had gone from social to alcoholic levels. He began missing work. I offered to be the one to call him in sick. I didn't want them to hear he was hung over, because I feared he might lose his job. He started spending money we needed for bills on his benders. He didn't know what bills we had or how much money we needed or what we had in the bank, thanks to me taking care of it all, so it wasn't a big deal to him. I would get angry, but in the end I just juggled the bills, or arranged payment plans to take care of it. He never had to deal with the fallout of his choices.

I begged him to get sober. To go into treatment. He denied having a problem. Felt since he was the sole breadwinner that he was entitled to drink and spend his money how he saw fit. He resented me for trying to tell him what to do and for acting like I was his parent. I resented him for not caring enough about me to get help, for having to clean up his messes and for him acting like a child. That just fed into the toxic cycle and kept it going. We would have all kinds of arguments that went in circles because neither of us could see what we were doing and our role in it.

When he became visually impaired almost a decade ago the codependency got completely out of control. He completely gave up on life and felt had to depend on me to take care of him. Any sense of self-worth he had was gone. He sunk into such a horrible state of depression. My caretaking amped up to extreme levels. "Here, I'll take care of that for you" was my go-to response to everything. I treated him like he was completely incompetent. The more I took care of things the more he expected them, but at the same time the more useless he felt, the more depressed he got, and the more he resented me. The more I took on, the more like a parent than a partner I felt, the more he expected me to do things, the more I resented him.

After a few years our resentments toward each other had turned to contempt. We no longer viewed each other as partners or equals. I really felt I no longer cared if he were to abandon me, I often felt it would have been a relief (that was until dday proved me wrong, because apparently I did care). Having tied my self-worth into doing for him, and no longer having the things I had done acknowledged or appreciated, I felt useless and unloved. The more I couldn't control what was going on around me, the more out of control I became. I had tried so hard to create this perfect life, this perfect marriage, this perfect family, and I had failed miserably. I felt completely and utterly worthless.

Dday, and the six or so months that followed, were my "crisis point", or, for lack of a better term, my "rock bottom". I just could not keep going on the way I had been.

And so began the journey to healing.

Reading "Women Who Love Too Much" at my IC's suggestion was the first step. It opened my eyes and helped me to see myself clearer. Listening to "Codependent No More" opened my eyes further. I could see a path forward and I finally felt less helpless. I started sitting with my thoughts and reflecting on everything. When I would have an insight about something - like the lack of self-worth, the fear of abandonment, the need for control and perfection, I dug deeper. I read book after book, article after article, watched videos. I took notes. Lots of them. I reflected. I discussed things with BetterFuture13. I shared what it was like from my perspective and he shared what it was like from his. He worked through his own codependency. We both worked through our resentments toward each other and discovered that the anger, resentments and contempt were not really for each other, but actually towards ourselves - for not being authentic and honouring ourselves, for not speaking up when we didn't agree, etc.

I've learned that I have worth just be being. That I am capable and stronger than I thought. That there is no such thing as perfect. That control is an illusion and that trying to get ground under my feet is an exercise in futility. (Check out Pema Chodron's conversations about groundlessness).

I feel lighter now.

BetterFuture13 and I are still together, and healthier than ever. It turns out that he is wiser, more insightful, more capable than I ever thought. We are partners and equals now. There was a chance when I started working on myself that it would not turn out this way - that he would continue on the path of self-destruction and I would have to walk away - but it was worth that risk to get myself into a healthier place. I'm glad he chose a similar path.

There is so much I left out and more I could have expanded on, but I hope that sharing my experience can help in some way.

Thank you onlytime.

Codependency started very early for me - domestic abuse between my parents from birth to their divorce, mother with serious mental health issues, she moved from midwest to CA when I was about 14.... I followed her, as did my younger sister about a year later. At 16-17, mom decides to move from CA to NY - and my sister and I were not invited. I was left to care for her.... until my father found out.

It took me years of therapy to work through it and in the midst of that is when I met WH. He was the 'great guy" that treated me like a queen. He was the SAFE one - the one that would take care of me. And, in many ways he did. But, ultimately, I do feel that having an A is it's own form of abandonment, and the fact that he was completely aware of this history makes me very angry. Indeed, it was not too long after the PA started that I detached from my mother - and we had long talks about how painful that was... but he went right back to her bedroom first chance he got.

So - I'm back at it again.

thank you for sharing, I really do appreciate it.

He started spending money we needed for bills on his benders. He didn't know what bills we had or how much money we needed or what we had in the bank, thanks to me taking care of it all, so it wasn't a big deal to him. I would get angry, but in the end I just juggled the bills, or arranged payment plans to take care of it. He never had to deal with the fallout of his choices.

Thank you for posting the above, for others out there who can relate to this, because I did the same thing BTW, how did you change this dynamic? When 2 people share the bills and the fallout of losing credit for not paying, how did you get him to deal with the fallout of not paying the bills or for buying something you guys could not afford? Meaning without it affecting you as well and your credit?

Now in my situation only, my WS "put" me in that role, he would act like he wanted to take over the bills, but when it came time to pay them he would be late or just not do them correctly and it would hurt our credit rating, so I would then start to take them over again. I learned there was a pattern with my WS that when he took on projects and if I was not around "to help" or lend a hand (make decisions) something would get "broken" or be "worse then I thought" and he would blow it up into a much bigger problem then it was, it would take days instead of 2 hours and it would cost much more money.

Its like he would punish me if I was not there giving him attention while he was working on something or praising him, or making a decision for him.

Anyway, I just thought to point out a certain thing to see if it relates to others as well and they could talk about it.

[This message edited by realitybites at 9:35 AM, July 5th (Thursday)]