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If you're willing to go that far, what's stopping you from considering the open marriage request? I don't get it. I'm a monogamist, so my line in the sand is sex/romance with other partners. But if you aren't a monogamist, what's holding you back? Theoretically, you could both take a marriage sabbatical and see what happens after your fWW's tour.

I'm a monogomist too and I think its very normal to be uncomfortable with the slightest whiff of non-monogamy especially after betrayal, but I think "sex with others while I'm there" vs. "sex with others in my absence" is a pretty bright clear line in the sand and OP was very clear about his boundary on this. For example, my spouse is perfectly entitled to have friendly relationships with female colleagues (subject to certain hard boundaries) and female friendships with couple friends of ours but it would be crossing a HARD boundary if I learned he was secretly texting them one-on-one during off-hours about non-work issues. Using the above logic, my husband could argue "but if texting about the logistics of a networking event is okay, why isn't a late night dick pic okay too?"

If you're suggesting that HurtHalo's wife may be trying to take advantage of the slippery-slope "If you give a mouse a cookie" logic, I'm with you, but I worry that several comments on this thread seem to suggest that by agreeing to open the door to take a peak at what dabbling in swinging might entail, that OP is somehow to blame for his wife's actions here and I don't think that's fair or correct.

If you're willing to go that far, what's stopping you from considering the open marriage request? I don't get it. I'm a monogamist, so my line in the sand is sex/romance with other partners. But if you aren't a monogamist, what's holding you back? Theoretically, you could both take a marriage sabbatical and see what happens after your fWW's tour.

CT- those two things aren't even in the same ballpark.

Swinging is a couples activity. Most of the time, couples are even in the same room and they might even have crazy agreements like no kissing or whatnot, because the primary intention is to have fun but it's considered to be a "team sport". Additionally, swingers are not romantic with their other partners. Sex is literally viewed as just a fun activity that couples do with other couples. Being romantic or emotionally intimate with a swing partner would likely violate many swingers' marital agreements.

Open relationships allow other sexual partners one-on-one, but generally have limits on emotional intimacy and romance as well. This is where things start to get complicated because when you have a long term relationship like a marriage and then add in a friend with benefits or whatnot, it can create that little bubble where that person looks like all fun and no hassle, since there's no everyday reality in it. Limerance can hit pretty hard and before you know it there's something that people would call "feelings" even if it's not love and would fizzle. And people who are in long term relationships often aren't ready for that blast of New Relationship Energy and they do a lot of stupid things because of it. If you only see someone through rose coloured glasses it's easy to think they're your soulmate once you're having some good novelty sex, right?

Polyamory is where you can agree to have both sex and romance with others. But I would say again strongly that it doesn't solve issues in the marriage. If someone isn't feeling emotionally connected to their partner, the solution isn't to turn away to someone else. That's only going to deepen the cracks, especially when someone finds another person that they either really do (or feel like they do) click with. If you're not wired to be poly, then there's always going to be those thoughts that maybe you should leave your spouse to try things with the new partner. People do stupid things while under the influence of NRE, especially if it's been a long time.

Aside from the definitions... I just wanted to reinforce that a desire to swing might sound like it's similar, but it's really more of a very, very small step up from monogamy and still very far away from much of anything else. Swinging still views spouses as a unit and not as two individuals. Any other type of consensual nonmonogamy (in a healthy context at least) requires the involved partners to at least put some thought into disentanglement and viewing themselves as two individuals in a relationship, rather than as a couple.

You don't even know if her affair was physical, so I'm not sure how you could trust her if you became swingers.

You have no reason to believe she may be hooking up this evening..aside from the fact that she has been logging onto that website several times a day.

File.

Let her parents know.

If you're suggesting that HurtHalo's wife may be trying to take advantage of the slippery-slope "If you give a mouse a cookie" logic, I'm with you, but I worry that several comments on this thread seem to suggest that by agreeing to open the door to take a peak at what dabbling in swinging might entail, that OP is somehow to blame for his wife's actions here and I don't think that's fair or correct.

It's not a matter of blame, not at all. Right now, we don't even know that the fWW has done anything wrong, let alone something to blame the OP for. I'm just suggesting that if the OP really doesn't care if his wife is sexually intimate with someone who is not him, if he's really comfortable with that... perhaps he should explore the question more. They wouldn't be the first couple to take a "marriage sabbatical". With appropriate boundaries, it might be a solution that they could both take advantage of. The tour of duty is already scheduled. Plans have been made. It's outside the box thinking, but maybe it could work.

With appropriate boundaries, it might be a solution that they could both take advantage of.

Therein lies the rub tho CT. She has already concretely demonstrated that she doesn't know how to respect or maintain appropriate boundaries.

Just my 0.02, but 'open marriage' will not work if one party has already engaged in infidelity. True workable open marriages require complete honesty and transparency, strong personal boundaries, and all parties being on board. And might be just me, but swinging as a couple is a way different proposition than a polyamorous relationship.

The girls night out is a pile of horse shit. It’s right out of the playbook.
VAR and GPS her car. Have her followed if you have someone you can trust to do so.
She is most likely continuing to cheat. This poly stuff is just her way of self justifying her actions.
Sorry for your pain. It is awful.

Just my 0.02, but 'open marriage' will not work if one party has already engaged in infidelity. True workable open marriages require complete honesty and transparency, strong personal boundaries, and all parties being on board.

It's true that I'm working from the assumption that R has been successful and that the WS is fully reformed. That sometimes does turn out not to be the case though, you're right about that. I tend to give the fWS the benefit of the doubt when R is longstanding.

HurtHalo, I'm sorry you're back here with this situation. You joined SI just before I did. My DDay1 was September 1, 2013.

I am a monogamist. Monogamy only. Apparently my xww didn't have the same standard even though we were born again Christians. The infidelity from DDay1 wasn't her first.

There has already been infidelity of some sort in your marriage. There was a long and painful period of attempting to R. I suggest you never really did R. Total openness and transparency would have been necessary for that and you still have questions about whether it was physical or not.

In my mind there isn't any reason to discuss more with her or give her a heads up or anything. She's checking on the sites you signed up for against your agreement. She dropped the bombshell at marriage counselling (agree with the idea that was the reason for suggesting the counselling). She's moving some distance away where out of sight, out of mind. There's no rule that I know of that says you get three strikes. She had strike one already. No more allowed. You're out.

File and have her served. Inform her parents after she's been served, not before.

I'm sorry, HurtHalo.

Open M is a crock of shit coming from a WS.

It’s a hall pass to do what she wants, her friends are out in the hall waiting for her.

She gets monogamy or D IMO

If you're suggesting that HurtHalo's wife may be trying to take advantage of the slippery-slope "If you give a mouse a cookie" logic, I'm with you, but I worry that several comments on this thread seem to suggest that by agreeing to open the door to take a peak at what dabbling in swinging might entail, that OP is somehow to blame for his wife's actions here and I don't think that's fair or correct.

I don’t think that was my point at all.

First, other than logging into a site they joined together we do not know that she has done anything further infidelity-wise. Sure doesn’t look good.

Secondly, it wasn’t that I didn’t understand that swinging is different than polyamory or that boundary hadn’t been set. When we were swingers neither of us would have agreed to polyamory so I get it. But It’s that if you endorse sexual openness, even pursue it, I am not sure it’s out of the blue for her to suggest discussing other possibilities. The indignation over her suggestion coupled with the casual way he described playing with the idea of swinging "for laughs" doesn’t track. For me this sounds like he is minimizing the seriousness of the swinging and maximizing the idea this is a blindside idea when it’s really suggesting a different version of non-monogamy.

Given the benefit of the doubt, she is bringing the idea forth for a discussion and that is a big improvement over betraying him and doing it without his consent.

Still I concur with the group on the basics- he should be very vigilant because it COULD point to her already being unfaithful or having someone in mind to be unfaithful with.

I also concur that if she wants that and he doesn’t there is nothing to do but divorce. If she doesn’t want to divorce and agrees to monogamy then she should go to IC to make sure that she can align herself with that lifestyle and be fulfilled. Because she still has wayward thinking- she is looking to other people to make her happy.

I think it’s likely just the beginning of the end.

But the part about blaming him is not true.I don’t blame him if she is cheating. I don’t blame him if he doesn’t want the arrangement she is suggesting. What I am pointing out is if you are a couple having discussions about being sexual with other people and you are saying it’s for laughs and fun, it’s not a blindside for the other person to take you to not feel monogamy is important and try to negotiate the boundaries of what that means. It doesn’t mean she has done anything beyond that.

I have no idea why swinging was ever on the table as in my experience that takes a great deal of trust. The wife in this instance is definitely looking for something to make her feel better rather than fixing her life in a healthy way. So again not guilty of cheating but guilty of wayward thinking. But I would be doing some investigation for sure.

Aside from the definitions... I just wanted to reinforce that a desire to swing might sound like it's similar, but it's really more of a very, very small step up from monogamy and still very far away from much of anything else. Swinging still views spouses as a unit and not as two individuals. Any other type of consensual nonmonogamy (in a healthy context at least) requires the involved partners to at least put some thought into disentanglement and viewing themselves as two individuals in a relationship, rather than as a couple.

This. I know it might be foreign for some to understand, but like centre left politics and communism, there is a gaping chasm between two (err..mostly? haha) mature adults engaging in a shared and consensual experience vice one partner looking for shadowy encounters and/or EAs on their own with out the other's knowledge.

To the person who privately messaged me and told me, 'see! This is what you get! Haha you're such a cuck!', you probably need to find somewhere else to post.

If you're suggesting that HurtHalo's wife may be trying to take advantage of the slippery-slope "If you give a mouse a cookie" logic, I'm with you, but I worry that several comments on this thread seem to suggest that by agreeing to open the door to take a peak at what dabbling in swinging might entail, that OP is somehow to blame for his wife's actions here and I don't think that's fair or correct. - emergent8

I agree that this is what is happening here. WHich gets me to my next post....

First off, I'm happy if an Admin moves this to 'Just Found Out' now.

Sooooo she went out to the football last night with her work colleagues. Before she left, she messaged me, 'Hon, if you want to talk, I am happy to stay home and we can talk it over.' I then notice she proceeds to log into the app twice in the next hour. Yeah, imagine why I'm feeling doubtful. I smile to the in-lawws and keep my mouth shut, dying inside with panic. I won't lie - it felt like nails being driven into my heart. Anyway, she came home early and we went to bed. I still didn't talk. I took a sleeping pill and slept in until 9:30am.

The in-laws left soon after, and it was game on when they left.

Other half asked if I wanted to talk, and I said yes. We went into the bedroom, and laid it out.

1. I said I resented, and was absolutely livid, with the fact that this bomb had been dropped on me with her in-laws down, and me having no way of dealing with it in an appropriate way.

2. I asked for her phone, and asked for her to open the app.

This is where her face went ashen.

Her: '...OK well to let you know, I have been chatting to some people on there.'

Me: **Insert D-Day fight and flight mode bringing the hard beats 2013-style**

Me: 'Open it. Now.'

She's been private messaging with up to 6 people. All guys (married - apparently 'looking for another couple to potentially meet up with him and his wife'...yeah ok), all bar one who was a female. There's nothing in the conversations that is provocative, and there are no dick pics etc. It's all mostly 'how did you all get into this lifestyle?' type of convos, but still. She has sent them heads shots of her face. And one guy has asked for her phone number. And one suggested catching up for a drink. If I was honest, and if it all played out in reality, she's 2 weeks away from cheating proper....but let's just say that she is cheating regardless noting the above.

At this stage I'm f%#king livid.

The whole point, nay the very point, that this was to be a couples thing that we potentially (and I say potentially) explored together. There was NEVER talk that we would message people behind the other's back. I am now convinced, whether rightly or wrongly, that I have been played in regards to the MC. Even if that's not the case, that's what it feels like. It would explain the bomb. And she's smart enough to know that dropping this with the in-laws in town was not the time to do it. She's under time pressure evidently.

I went off. The kids heard/fathomed most of it. Now I don't know what to do. She said nothing was going to come of this, and that is was just an ego boost. Sadly, that was the excuse I got last time, and something DID come of it. I'm just so lost, I have been in tears all morning. I admit we have been emotionally distant, but part of that has been a defence for the past and the crazy events of the past 2 years. She doesn't think this reaction is a deal-breaker in comparison to other reactions, but I just can't reconcile it. To access the app and partake in personal (even if they aren't sexual) conversations with other people while having MC to apparently fix and health check the marriage, I feel shows me complete contempt for the marriage. To access the app and continue that while your husband is evidently in emotional truama is just beyond me.

But you all have felt this same feeling, as have I.

[This message edited by Hurthalo at 7:45 AM, Saturday, April 23rd]

It's telling that you tiptoe around your wife's parents to avoid upsetting them, then once they're gone, you have a loud fight that the children can hear and will have to emotionally process and remember. Whose well-being is more important? HER parents? Or YOUR children? Think about it, seriously. You just put her parents in first place because at least subconsciously, you didn't want to upset her. No excuses- that's what you did.

Stop putting her needs and wants above yours and your children's. Get out. This is unhealthy for you and for the kids.

She doesn't love or respect you, probably never did. How do I know? From her behavior. Get a divorce and move on.

[This message edited by morningglory at 2:12 PM, Saturday, April 23rd]

It's like a punch to the gut, I'm sure. She does seem to be manipulating the situation and carried away with the lure of it. Could she have misinterpreted the signals from the swinging conversation? I think so. Swinging, even if it is discussed as a couples only activity, is pretty edgy and if your spouse is open to it I think you could easily begin to believe that they might be open to more than that too. That doesn't mean this isn't a problem of course.

At least she was up front, she wants to talk about it and she hasn't actually connected with anyone seriously yet. Does that mean you can work through this? Well, I think it gives you a fighting chance if you have the energy and the desire on your part. It sounds like she is backing down from the idea, is that correct? Do you think that is her genuine, thoughtful consideration or is it just her immediate reaction to your anger?

"Her face went ashen", HurtHalo.

She knew what she was doing wasn't in the agreement - that she went too far. But she did it anyway. Because - why not. She knew she was about to be found out and that made her face go ashen.

Secrets from the spouse. Sound familiar. This is a typical behaviour. What you don't know won't hurt you.

This is not the first time for this in your marriage. Fool me once shame on me.....

Based on your last update it seems this situation has turned into an argument about messaging other men on a swinger's app instead of the bomb she dropped in your first post.

Yeah so I am lacking emotional fulfillment from the marriage, and despite my best efforts to convince myself that I'm not like this, I really think the only way to get fulfillment would be from seeing other people in an ethical non-monogamous relationship or relationships.

If what she said was true, then everything she did since makes sense. She said that you weren't enough for her. Arguing about whether messaging other couples behind your back was appropriate or not seems moot, and a waste of time. There may be another way to deal with her need for more relationships, besides get on board or get out, but I can't think of one. I don't think you should waste your time with any of the rest until you figure that out.

For me, what a couple agree upon within the bonds of a marriage is fine. Of course – within the limits of the law, based on mutual respect and voluntary agreement. If a couple decide to open the marriage, have sex with balloon-animals or whatever… their call if they are BOTH in agreement with it.
I’m also fine with couples – one partner or both – asking for changes on the terms of the marriage. Asking is not the same as doing.

I’m also fine with the wife using the forum of MC to address this issue. I’m in total agreement that this is the reason she wanted MC.

However, asking is not the same as getting.
You are totally within your rights to want to think this over, to contemplate what she’s asking for and what you are open for.

Too often we brand all forms of "alternative" marriage into open marriage when in fact it’s all sorts of cultures, sub-cultures and niches.
It can be non-emotional swinging at organized sex-clubs, in each other’s presence, random lovers, defined lovers, emotions allowed, non-emotional, sexual or "love". This is all defined by the couple as and when they decide to accept this alternative lifestyle.

A couple with an "open marriage" where it’s decided that they can go together to swinger-parties where the husband watches Jack have sex with his wife can experience infidelity if the same husband walks in on Jack having sex with his wife next Wednesday evening. THAT sex – THAT incident was outside the agreed parameters. If there is an agreement on no-kissing then the wife can experience infidelity if she walks in on the swinging husband kissing the woman he’s having sex with. Not because of the sex, but because he crossed the line.

She didn’t ask for an open marriage. She asked for polyamory.
Polyamory isn’t about having sex with other people. It’s about having relationships with other people, and sex is a part of that relationship. She’s asking if she can find someone to date, to have dinner with, to walk along the beach holding hands and to have sex with. Then she might come home and you two do something comparable next day. It’s all nice and cuddles and everyone happy.
It’s not "open marriage" in the sense that you two can swing or have sex with other people. It’s "open marriage" in the sense that she has two or more men that fulfil the role of husband. I guess you too will have that ability, so it’s not one-sided.
Honestly it doesn’t appeal to me. But she’s not asking me – she’s asking you.

To me it boils down to two factors. Two simple factors that you need to decide. Your decision isn’t based on what you want, but rather the answer to these two factors:

Can you accept the fact that your wife has other romantic (note I don’t limit it to sexual) partners? Would you be OK with it when she packs a bag and let’s you know that she’s going to Jake or Brad next weekend? Would you be OK if she’s all excited and flustered because Boris has planned a romantic spa-date? Think you will be competing when you buy her that dorky Valentine’s card? If you are OK with all this and the emotions it can create within you then IMHO be open to her suggestion.

If the answer to the above is "no" then you need to ask yourself – and your wife – the following question:
Can SHE limit her romantic and emotional needs and desires to YOU?
That answer needs to be yes if your marriage is to survive.

You want an honest assessment here. If there is doubt… well… maybe your best bet is to set her free to do what she needs to do.

Could she have misinterpreted the signals from the swinging conversation? I think so. Swinging, even if it is discussed as a couples only activity, is pretty edgy and if your spouse is open to it I think you could easily begin to believe that they might be open to more than that too. That doesn't mean this isn't a problem of course.

Trdd- this is like saying that because your partner drinks the occasional glass of wine that you think they'll be open to cocaine, too.

She didn’t ask for an open marriage. She asked for polyamory.

Polyamory isn’t about having sex with other people. It’s about having relationships with other people, and sex is a part of that relationship. She’s asking if she can find someone to date, to have dinner with, to walk along the beach holding hands and to have sex with. Then she might come home and you two do something comparable next day. It’s all nice and cuddles and everyone happy.

It’s not "open marriage" in the sense that you two can swing or have sex with other people. It’s "open marriage" in the sense that she has two or more men that fulfil the role of husband. I guess you too will have that ability, so it’s not one-sided.

Honestly it doesn’t appeal to me. But she’s not asking me – she’s asking you.

To me it boils down to two factors. Two simple factors that you need to decide. Your decision isn’t based on what you want, but rather the answer to these two factors:

Bigger- she said she wanted this because her marriage is lacking in emotional connection. That's not poly. Poly doesn't look for one relationship to prop up another. That's a clear sign of a serial mono mindset, actually. One relationship isn't working so emotionally "move on" to another.

By the way, most poly people don't have a second relationship as serious as a second husband. It happens (I've been lucky enough to make a live-in relationship work and I still wouldn't say that my boyfriend is a spousal equivalent after four years). Many poly relationships stay at the fun boyfriend/girlfriend level, last for a few months or maybe longer, than end. It's not easy to find someone that you click with well enough for a long term relationship! Add in that they have to be poly or poly friendly, and it's a shallow dating pool. Think of how hard it is to find a good compatible partner for mono dating and then rule out about 80% of them lol.

[This message edited by PSTI at 11:46 AM, April 23rd (Saturday)]

First off, I'm happy if an Admin moves this to 'Just Found Out' now.

Moving per OP’s request.

  Moving to Just Found Out