SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thumos

During my A, my AP and I never really talked about my wife. If I did, I didn’t disparage her by saying things like "She’s an asshole" "I can’t stand her because she’s such a bitch" etc. Certainly I was showing the ultimate disrespect in my actions but I never felt like my wife was the butt of a private joke.

I’ve followed your story for quite some time and the levels of your wife’s cruelty often astounded me. I think you’re 100 percent correct when saying that they felt that you and his BW were jokes. It’s bad enough to have the A in the first place but to literally do it right in front of you takes it to another level. The real icing on the cake is her convincing you to thank him for your A consolation prize.

One important thing to remember about this thread, Thumos -- and all of SI, for that matter -- is that when a member describes the reality of their own experience, that's not (or at least should not be) the same as claiming it's the reality of everyone else's experience. WOES can be telling the truth of her thought patterns in playing footsie in front of her BH, but in doing so, she isn't trying to gaslight you into minimizing your WW's behavior. She's just verifying one of the possible ways a WS may feel -- more anxious than gleeful, more craven than vicious. YMMV.

Think of WS as a group of rebellious teenagers having a party at a house where the parents are out of town. You get a mix of attitudes at those parties. Some of them are hell bent on drunken destruction, entitled brats who do anything they want because they think they're untouchable. Some kids know there could be consequences in theory but are too immature and impulsive to absorb that reality in practice. Some are deeply anxious, ready to throw up the entire time because they are waiting for the parent's door key or the flashing blue lights. They may have varying motivations for forging ahead -- escapism, bravado, validation, entitlement. This doesn't change the fact that they were all there doing something they knew damn well they weren't supposed to do. It probably does influence how likely they are to show remorse for the damage they caused.

The best days for me as a reformed WS on this thread are the ones where I can explain something to a BS in a way that helps them process their new reality. The most useful information I can impart is the truth of my own lived experience, rather than speculating how someone else felt while doing something I've never done. That doesn't mean I'm typing from my desk at the public relations division of Waywards LLC. If you aren't confused, and your gut is telling you the same thing that makes logical sense to you, we aren't here to talk you out of it or to try to offer false hope. And personally, I tend to read your situation the way that you do.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 4:18 PM, Saturday, February 5th]

As you can imagine, this feels an awful lot like giggling, or the close approximation. Let us more accurately say a prank or practical joke of some kind, with the faithful partners as the butt of the cosmic humor.

Yes, Thumos, it’s quite easy to imagine that you feel this way. Is it true? Well, that is hard to say without digging deep into your WW’s mind and her rationale at the time of her affair. The only thing I can give you is a glimpse into what my experience was and is today.

At the time that my affair began, I had already begun to rewrite our history. Having an affair wasn’t something I was seeking or even something that had crossed my mind. When the OM made his initial move, I rejected it. I should have said something to my husband right there and then, but the flattery got the better of me. His attention fed right into every insecurity within me. We lived 3 hours apart so seeing each other wasn’t very convenient. Most of my affair was through text or through an online game we all played. It was very literally nothing but us stroking each other’s egos.

Affairs are very much about currency. You give a certain amount to receive the goods you are after. What I was after was someone that couldn’t see my flaws. Someone that saw me as a goddess, beautiful and sexy. Someone that was willing to do anything and everything for me. How amazing is that? He was willing to risk so much just be with me. How could I not provide him currency for that?

So what you may see as a private joke during an ass grab, may really have been currency to show him that "hey, I know we are in this situation, but I am still thinking of you. You still think I’m the bomb too, right?" What is exchanged in that grab is more along the lines of "we are both still the bomb."

I don’t have encouraging words regarding your position in all of this. I seriously doubt you were the butt of their jokes, but you were definitely used. I used my husband’s trust to get my wants met. I can’t say needs because no one needs that kind of validation. The sad fact is that I became pretty damn selfish and instead of allowing myself to be vulnerable to discuss the problems in my marriage I turned away for some temporary good feels. The even sadder fact is that I didn’t consider my husband in any real and meaningful way.

I’m not sure what is worse though. The idea that I thought he was joke or the idea that I didn’t think of him much at all other in the fact that I was worried sick about how him finding out might affect me.

I know this is going to sound like a huge contradiction, but I honestly loved my husband even through all of the bullshit. I certainly didn’t show him love and I certainly wasn’t being loving. What I had a hard time with was loving myself or even thinking I was worthy of love. I used my husband’s insecurities to feed into my own which gave me the permission I needed to seek out validation and feel he shared blame.

I will forever feel shame regarding the ways I have made my husband feel for that time in our marriage. The good kind of shame, the kind that keeps you from doing stupid crap. I will also forever make sure I work hard enough to never allow that to happen again.

I can honestly say that my view of my husband and his feelings were very 2 dimensional at the time. I didn’t think of him as someone with deep and complex feelings. I had this twisted and antiquated view of what men were. I don’t think that anymore.

I hope your wife appreciates you for the complex person you are these days whether you stay together or go separate ways.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:24 PM, Saturday, February 5th]

Hi everyone,

I have a few questions for the WS, I am grateful thank so much time thought and understand goes into the answers here so thank you.

Yesterday my WH email was open and I looked up emails that were sent mostly to the AP from him. It was a time when they had broken up and he was trying to get her back. The things he wrote were so explanatory about how he felt. Things he wrote on there I dont know that he has ever said then to me but its been 16 years so maybe at the beginning. Plus we have never broken up for him to write endless emails to me about his undying love and want for me.

I have been reading a little about limerence because he told me recently after I told him I dont know who he is that he doesn't really know who he was during the A and he doesnt understand it either. What he felt for her he thought was love but he actually thinks its infatuation. So that let me too limerence?

1. for those WS that went to limerence did you feel about your AP that they were everything? I mean his emails.. wow... she was everything to him. Its like they were the ones married and she was his one true love who he just can't live without.

2. He tells me he loves me, he chose me and couldn't leave me. That he doesn't think he will ever find someone like me, (that I won't find anyone like him, umm yes I know), that he doesnt want to loose everything we have built together, But will I ever have this feeling of But wow how can you write such love letters and wanting to get back together if if you love your spouse? I just dont understand and am trying to because he is doing work. MY gut is saying something is not right. And I'm guessing its going to say this for a long time.

He said he compartmentalized everything so it was all separate, what he had with me was just us and what he had with the ap was that. HE also called her things he calls me. Im really hurt by this. He didn't keep anything of ours ours. Does that make sense?

I think maybe now im just rambling....

Thank you for your thoughts. I really appreciate more insight into this. I just cant believe it, that he had it in him to do this to us. And not stop it or do the right thing by his family.

Squish....

Thanks once again for these thoughtful responses. I know they are both time consuming and difficult to write. I appreciate it.

Bump

Hi everyone,

I have a few questions for the WS, I am grateful thank so much time thought and understand goes into the answers here so thank you.

Yesterday my WH email was open and I looked up emails that were sent mostly to the AP from him. It was a time when they had broken up and he was trying to get her back. The things he wrote were so explanatory about how he felt. Things he wrote on there I dont know that he has ever said then to me but its been 16 years so maybe at the beginning. Plus we have never broken up for him to write endless emails to me about his undying love and want for me.

I have been reading a little about limerence because he told me recently after I told him I dont know who he is that he doesn't really know who he was during the A and he doesnt understand it either. What he felt for her he thought was love but he actually thinks its infatuation. So that let me too limerence?

1. for those WS that went to limerence did you feel about your AP that they were everything? I mean his emails.. wow... she was everything to him. Its like they were the ones married and she was his one true love who he just can't live without.

2. He tells me he loves me, he chose me and couldn't leave me. That he doesn't think he will ever find someone like me, (that I won't find anyone like him, umm yes I know), that he doesnt want to loose everything we have built together, But will I ever have this feeling of But wow how can you write such love letters and wanting to get back together if if you love your spouse? I just dont understand and am trying to because he is doing work. MY gut is saying something is not right. And I'm guessing its going to say this for a long time.

He said he compartmentalized everything so it was all separate, what he had with me was just us and what he had with the ap was that. HE also called her things he calls me. Im really hurt by this. He didn't keep anything of ours ours. Does that make sense?

I think maybe now im just rambling....

Thank you for your thoughts. I really appreciate more insight into this. I just cant believe it, that he had it in him to do this to us. And not stop it or do the right thing by his family. duh

Squish.... barf

Hi Squish.

I don’t know when your DDay was but based on your registration date, I guess you’re only a few months in. Unfortunately, this roller coaster of emotions and questions and nothing making sense, will persist for a while. You mentioned a lot of things that other BS’s can help you with. Are you posting on the other forum? I’m going to try to address things from a WS’s perspective.

He tells me he loves me, he chose me and couldn't leave me. That he doesn't think he will ever find someone like me, (that I won't find anyone like him, umm yes I know), that he doesnt want to loose everything we have built together

I don’t know if he’s remorseful, regretful, doing the work or not, but saying he doesn’t want to lose everything you built together is a big duh. He doesn’t want to face the consequences of his actions. I didn’t want to either. But the choice isn’t his anymore, it’s yours. He chose to lose it when he threw it away by having his A. Now it’s your choice.

But will I ever have this feeling of But wow how can you write such love letters and wanting to get back together if if you love your spouse? I just dont understand and am trying to because he is doing work. MY gut is saying something is not right. And I'm guessing its going to say this for a long time.

It will be with you for a long time. I’m sorry. How could he if he loved you? I thought I loved the AP. Not soulmate kind of love but that we were in love. Was it real? No. Not at all. I was living in a fantasy land. He said he loved me, it made me feel wonderful about myself, I said I loved him, and that cycle perpetuated. I was not thinking about my BH, my children, my family. It was really all about me and this image I built up. And when you’re in this fantasy world, I wasn’t doing his laundry, I wasn’t cooking dinner or driving carpool or arguing over bills or scheduling conflicts or dealing with his relatives or anything like that with him. So it’s this weird fake bubble. I also built up the whole "I’m in love thing" because it made it somewhat "okay" in my warped mind to do what I was doing. See I wasn’t having a sleazy ONS or it was just about sex. I wasn’t that kind of girl. This was love. It meant something. The lies we tell ourselves to rationalize and justify our crappy choices. Like I said before, the truth was that I didn’t love him. See I didn’t love me and I desperately wanted to love me. And he said he loved me. Somebody loved me! I was worth being loved. And so I loved him. And this love bubble was built. Meanwhile I never once ever thought of leaving my BH for him.

Anyway, I don’t know what he meant when he wrote those things or if this was an exit A, or if he’s lying to you now. Maybe he really did love her. Maybe he only said those things to get what he wanted from her. That’s just one of the things a WS inflicts on their BS. The confusion and angst and not really knowing. I’m sorry. What I will say is that you should monitor his actions, not his words, very carefully. And if something feels off, it likely is. Trust your gut.

Reposting this here from General discussion.

I am seeking insight from WS’s on the topic of withholding information that BS’s NEED for the purpose of processing and moving forward with R.
I am asking it of those who are truly committed to R and have turned from their past behavior.
I am 2.5 years post Dday, and still feel like I do not have an accurate timeline or complete accounting of everything. I have never wanted every "dirty" detail. Just the W’s and H.

So my question for WS’s is:

What is the reasoning, mindset, and justification behind not being completely honest even when you believe you are completely committed to R?

Hi Texas74.

What is the reasoning, mindset, and justification behind not being completely honest even when you believe you are completely committed to R?

Fear.

It comes from self-preservation.

Before I get into the actual reasons, you should know that the whole premise of the question is off. Being committed to R means NOT withholding anything and being completely open and honest. If you’re still lying or not being 100% truthful and open, then how can you truly R? So Texas74, if you don’t have all the answers you want and need, then how can you call yourself reconciled?

In general though the fear is a powerful motivator to hide things. It goes something like this:
He knows I did this, but if he knew I did that too, he’d divorce me.
He’d hate me.
We seem to be getting better, I just want to put this behind us and move on.
I can’t admit to him what kind of person I am.
I can’t admit to myself what kind of person I am.
My reputation, security, lifestyle, relationships, will suffer.
What if I tell him and he never gets past it?
Why rock the boat?

Living a life of authenticity is not easy, but it’s the best thing for a real relationship. The mask comes off and you stand naked in front of your SO saying this is me (like the song). Here I am. And you let go of the outcome you so desperately are trying to hold onto. It’s scary but it’s also freeing. And if you’re able to really work towards R after that and that’s how you live your life going forward then your R will be a real R.

We lie because knowledge is power. The WS is the only one who knows the scope of our own offenses (and in some cases, we've tried our best to forget). We feel like as long as we hold on to that information, we can control the consequences of our actions. The best outcome, in our opinion, is reconcilation. "After all," we think, "I've changed! I've learned my lesson! My BH may not trust that yet, but I know it's true. So why upset the apple cart with painful and now-irrelevant details that are in the past and can't be undone? It will just hurt him, and he'll misunderstand and make too much of it, and maybe he'll even wish he didn't know, but it will be impossible to put the toothpaste back in the tube. Worst of all, maybe he'll leave me. Right when I finally "get it," and am committed to making him happy, he'll decide we're beyond saving. What a waste that would be!"

Loss of control scares a WS more than anything else. Whether we're narcissists who feed on power, or we have low self-esteem and fear abandonment, we manipulate to protect ourselves. Don't get me wrong; most of us really don't want to hurt you. We believed that we could keep you safe by keeping you in the dark. Once we're caught, that old habit often dies the hardest. We resist putting both of our fates entirely in your hands.

It takes so, so much work to convince a WS that lies about what they did in the past are harming their spouse in the present. It's a permanent impediment to true healing. But we think we know better, and when we try to even entertain the idea of letting go of our power, it's like someone is telling us to jump off a bridge. Letting go of the outcome and telling the full truth was the most frightening thing I ever had to do.

[This message edited by BraveSirRobin at 5:24 PM, Tuesday, February 15th]

This

Loss of control scares a WS more than anything else.

And this.

Letting go of the outcome and telling the full truth was the most frightening thing I ever had to do.

So true.

Thumos I don’t know if you are still reading this thread but I want to say something that dovetails from what Woes and BSR said.

I think BSR is right, we all have our own individual experiences to draw from. At the same time, there are themes that seem to be able to be found in most affairs.

I think you would agree that someone who has an affair dehumanizes their spouse. They do not consider their spouse at all in regards to their affair.

I know I did not. I minimized what he meant to me and deadened my emotions towards him. In order to do what I did, I shut him out. When you shut someone out, you push away thinking of them quite a lot. It’s for this reason I do not believe I would have been making him the butt of my jokes.(and I didn’t)

No it’s worse, I wasn’t thinking of him at all. To me this is mixing concepts - i am not considering or thinking of him but have strong enough feelings to make him some sort of centerpiece within my affair? No.

I tend to believe I am not in a minority of ws who would say we didn’t really speak about our spouses all that much. Benign stuff like "we are going here and doing this today" was the extent.

I believe it could be you were the butt if a joke. I just strongly suspect the feeling of being the butt of the joke is more about them having a secret together from you. The fact you knew and socialized with her AP makes it a double betrayal and feeling that way whether it happened that way or not would be a natural response.

I say that because I need to answer in here as a ws. But I have found that because I knew my husbands ap and they hid it from me in similar situations as you describe it makes me feel more like a fool that it was under my nose and that sends me down the same path as being the butt of their joke. We also have in common this happened in my home.

However, when I question my husband, it’s very obvious to me that many of his responses and reactions in the affair was no different than my own. Even though in my situation I did not know AP’s wife and vice versa. He was shutting me out,to make me the butt of a joke would have been including me. She did it a couple times but got a response from him she didn’t like. I have confirmation of this through her spouse.

Affairs are stupid and I wish they didn’t exist. I am sorry you are still struggling.

One last thing - I do find it helpful in both directions to be able to measure growth. An evolving perspective. Without that I am not sure there would be a reason to hang in there - even with kids at home. They absorb the toxicity even if nothing ever happens in front of them out of the ordinary.

We have finally shared with our kids all that has happened and despite them living hours away they felt it anyway. In their individual relationships with us - they could feel the distraction and the self-involvement we have had why like focusing on our healing. Believe me - I thought I was showing oresence and hiding it all very well. It’s too big.

As I have dealt with a LTAP that has a self proclaimed desire for revenge, a strong emotional attachment for WH and has cyberstalked me/WH and tried to reach out over various fake profiles ultimately ending with a Cease and Desist - I have a few questions:

Have any of you ever taken things that far?

Would any of you have been tempted to violate a C&D if you thought you may get away with it?

What would it really take to realize it is over?

Why does WS still sneak around when BS and immediate family know about ongoing affair. Why sneak around if you have no interest in working things out with BS.

Why does WS still sneak around when BS and immediate family know about ongoing affair. Why sneak around if you have no interest in working things out with BS.

Because they're trying to avoid public censure. They sold themselves a narrative that justifies their behavior, but they know that it's a pretty thin argument for anyone who is familiar with their spouse. This makes them feel misunderstood and defensive, and they don't want to hear from anyone who sees the affair for what it really is. They may also be hoping that they can spin the A as a relationship that started after the marriage ended.

Thanks BraveSirRobin. That makes total sense. If you’ve read my past posts, my daughter is the WS and I discovered her affair. Our relationship has deteriorated from best friends to superficial chats on messenger. It’s been four months since discovery. I’m having a hard time forgiving her but I know I have to at some point for the sake of my granddaughter and our entire family. Should I be the first to initiate. Thank you for your time.

Hi Chaos, didn't want to leave you hanging.

The questions about stalker AP's is a good one. I'm not sure you're going to get input from a WS who personally stalked AP after their affair was over. The kinds of AP's who do that seem to be more the "bunny boiler" type. It's rare that I've run into a former bunny boiler here on the forum. Unless someone else here has?

I'm sorry you're dealing with that level of crazy. I definitely have been curious about my AP and his life in the early days after the A ended and I switched positions. However... yeah, I haven't gone farther than looking at his LinkedIn profile.

It seems your former AP may be dealing with several kinds of mental illness. No surprise- most of us WS's are mentally ill in one way or another. It just sucks that you drew the short straw on a more crazy and unstable AP than is typical on these boards. Most of us are cowards- we scuttle back under the sink like cockroaches when DDay hits.

Soooo... all that to say, I don't really know. Not in that headspace, can't say more than it looks like she's a bunny boiler and now you've got to deal with this extra shit sandwich of an AP who refuses to understand they're a cockroach and need to scuttle.

Shit sandwiches... ugh. I hate the number of them I've heaped on my BH's plate. But now I'm rambling...

Thanks BraveSirRobin. That makes total sense. If you’ve read my past posts, my daughter is the WS and I discovered her affair. Our relationship has deteriorated from best friends to superficial chats on messenger. It’s been four months since discovery. I’m having a hard time forgiving her but I know I have to at some point for the sake of my granddaughter and our entire family. Should I be the first to initiate. Thank you for your time.

Your daughter hid it from you because she already knows it’s wrong and because she knows you will not approve.

I would not approve either. However as someone who has cheating in my own history I want to say that many ws do these things out of their own pain. Your daughter is likely seeking validation and happiness in another person not realizing our happiness or worth does not exist in other people. In fact, there is nothing more unreliable to place those needs in.

I am not sure if you have been a victim of cheating or what your reaction is being based on. I know that you love her and miss her. Do you feel she has betrayed you personally? Why or why not? The lying?

The longer this goes on the tougher it will be to regain your relationship - in her mind she likely feels betrayed too. It will be some time before she figures out why she did this and why it was a really bad idea. Right now she is full of justifications.

I hate that I did what I did, but in the end it did put me on a better path. The same may happen here. Change and self discovery takes years. I think ultimately many people need to see that change before they can forgive.

What if instead of forgiveness you aim
For acceptance? The truth is we all have our own path and journey. We all make bad decisions. Is her path likely to be Infinitely harder? Yes. I am
Sure you worry about the well being of your granddaughter. Aim for acceptance so that you can be there when things start shifting in place. You seem to clearly want the relationship to
Improve but forgiveness may be a lofty goal for this point in the story.

As a fellow parent and soon to be grandparent, I realize your love is unconditional. She needs it even if she doesn’t realize it right now. I would reach out. I can understand the anger and disappointment, but that is not going to help you or her in the situation.

Chaos- I am sorry to see you are still dealing with this person.

I did not do the things you are asking about. I respected the NC, but I was a meek person. (Far less now) I am not bold, confrontational, or demanding which probably were the only things stopping me from being a bunny boiler. That and I did believe by about 4 months post affair that I wanted my marriage and I needed to fix myself.

I was crazy enough to feel all in with an AP of two months versus a marriage I was in for decades. I can look back and see I was not mentally well at all, but as you know I was in the midst of a nervous breakdown. I say this because it’s not persistence that has her here, it’s mental illness.

There are few known cures for limerance. Believe me I researched the shit out of it trying to find my way out- it felt as if I had no control no matter what I tried. I was treated for OCD and followed some of the same principles in therapy as any other addict would have to go through. I wanted to get better and I don’t think this woman does.

You have little control over any of the known cures for this. She has made up a narrative in her head that you are preventing him from being with her. Anything that happens she makes up a way around believing he truly doesn’t want her. Any attention she gets for her actions - no matter how negative is still attention. I think that she may be thriving on it. You have been here about the same time as me, I cannot imagine what kind of person you are dealing with that would be still at it this amount of time later.

Can you leave anything she sends unopened? (I know I have missed a lot since I have been gone). If she thinks she is disrupting you, the marriage, still reaching him, etc, then to her that is probably seen as progress. Is starving her of all attention an option? I know there was a legal process in place, so I am not sure how possible that is. I know some people feel they are in danger.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:02 AM, Wednesday, February 23rd]

I think I may have said it before, Chaos, and I imagine it's something you know all too well already... but the combination of an obsessive AP with a WS who took her underground after D-Day is a special kind of disaster. He said the things you wanted to hear and then proved to her that he didn't mean them. That's a lesson she will never unlearn. She'll continue to believe that you forced them involuntarily apart and that he chose you for practical reasons. He could spit in her face, and she'd still tell herself that you put the saliva in his mouth.

IMO, the only thing that will make her drop it (and Lord, I hate saying this) is a new AP. If someone else starts filling the role of her be-all, end-all, then she can relegate your WH to the rubbish heap of men who either didn't recognize her worth or who lacked the stones to leave their pathetic marriages for her. She has no remorse and no incentive to challenge those thought patterns because she sees herself as the victim. If she gets back into a situation where she feels powerful, then she'll tell herself that she's the one who finally cut the cord.