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It seemed on the light side.

This could indicate that she does not really understand the impact of what she has done, or she is still in her schoolgirl mentality (just got caught with her hand in the cookie jar. Oopsie!).

There was a lot of her stating something and then talking about the physiological reasons she made the decisions. I didn't see the explanations as minimizing, I got the feeling she was really trying to understand her decisions.

Or it could be trying to justify her actions?

The night they spent together was pre-race I assume? If it was, I would hazard a guess that the main purpose of going there was not for the race, but to see her AP. The reason I presume this, is that anyone who is even semi-serious about a race, would be worried about getting enough rest the night before, so that they can perform their best (or else what reason would there be to enter a competition?).

The next thing, the timeline. I don't know about you, but typing is an impersonal act. It is an 'easy' way out. Handwritten would be best, as it takes effort and it makes a person think harder when committing pen to paper. The impact of the document will be greater.

I’ll give her little pieces of hope kibble each time she gives me more information. Basically incentivizing truth.

Would suggest that you do not do this. If a WS were truly remorseful, they would be doing all they can (and more) to EARN the BS trust back. The WS would be doing all the chasing. Why reward expected or bad behaviour?

She would even be dropping her current IC (without any prompting from you), and engaging someone who helps her, rather than enables her.

The WS would be putting in so much effort that you will be able to see it clearly, but it looks like your WS is still not attained any self-awareness yet. Still passive, and hoping that someone will dig her out of the trouble she is in, rather than dig herself out.

Legatus, your WW isn’t a dumb woman, she likely has an idea of what you know and is trying to frame her timeline to somewhat match what she thinks you know. Stay the course on the poly and do not deviate.

I found an email my WW didn’t delete sent to her AP. It was a smoking gun, absolutely no “misinterpretation” possible, so she really couldn’t change the narrative. However, she was absolutely able to gaslight me and TT me for a long time. I so wanted to believe her. I too wanted to pummel the AP because what I was told was he was a predator. Well, that was all bullshit. He was a snake, for sure, but my WW was the one pushing to take it further after they slept together.

I would just stay the course, demand a poly with specific questions and don’t commit to anything until she does the poly.

Simply tell her that her timeline is lacking details that you already know, and if she can’t be honest with you, there is no point continuing this charade.

I’ll be honest. Even though I suspected a PA, before posting here I had convinced myself it wasn’t a PA. Now with the timeline and the obvious PA there is no doubt. I think this was what they call a romantic affair. Those typically end in devolve according some articles I read because the WS protects the affair until all is lost.

I sent her a response to her timeline asking question about 2 hours after I received it. This morning I asked if she had read the email and she hadn’t. I let her know that in the response I insisted on her responding to the questions within 24 hours. She has a tendency to drag these things out. Still minimal effort with a trickle truth approach on her end.

The most recent card she wrote me has sat unopened for days. She asked me to open it and I said I wasn’t going to. She must really think these cards are a fix all.

I know people think otherwise, but I don’t think this was a PA before we moved to Michigan. I think it would have been, but my gut is telling me it wasn’t. In the timeline she mentions red flags leading up to her overnight visit. One of these I can verify with information I found on my own. She said he referred to her as his virtual mistress. This matches with google searches about the topic. During the same period her search history showed she was looking up articles about marriage and how it is an outdated concept. These searches were in the months preceding the visit.

In the search history I could see when it got serious, and when she realized she needed to start deleting things. Going back in the search history to the time before we moved didn’t throw up any red flags. I can see that this heated up a d became something more about six months before the overnight visit.

The half dozen work trip she’d had over the past few years were all times they could have hooked up as well. There is one that sticks out as a likely candidate since she behaved in a way during the trip that my gut didn’t like.

Edited for typo

[This message edited by Legatus at 4:21 PM, Tuesday, August 24th]

Those typically end in devolve according some articles I read because the WS protects the affair until all is lost.

Yes, and your WW is still doing it. She's protecting the details of the affair still. Holding the secret of the affair as more important than your marriage. She doesn't want it out in the light of day where it'll be shown to be just a tawdry affair. I think regardless of when the PA started, the EA component was very much going strong before you moved. They spent a lot of time together between work and running. Probably more time than you spent together awake. If she is honest the inappropriateness interactions were there early on. That's why she was so set on making the trip that you feel was the consummation of their relationship.
I'd still put her through the poly even though D is your destination. It will give you closure and reassure yourself that you were right in light of her gaslighting.

Those typically end in devolve according some articles I read because the WS protects the affair until all is lost.

It's interesting that you brought this up. There is another poster named Thumos who is dealing with a slightly similar situation. His WW only admitted to one instance of sexual contact however much like you he had gotten an admission of a night where he is certain in his gut that another instance took place. He poly'd her. She had a meltdown leading up to the polygraph. She passed all questions except the one about sexual contact only once. No surprises there. And yet even now, after all that, she still steadfastly refuses to admit it.

I thought that typically most WSes give up after enough time of being caught and questioned. Only the exceptionally special ones hold on despite mounting evidence to the contrary. IME that's what happens on SI and you would be shocked at what comes out during the polygraph test in order for them to pass. But maybe it's more common than I think and some WSes will just never own up to it even if the BS has them on video in the act.

Today she finally admitted they had sex during the trip to his house. She denies and sex before or since. She seems to be letting the information flow freely now. That's kind of nice. I'm less upset than I thought I would be. I guess because I've assumed it for a little while now.

I have a lot of questions and some of them seem a little dirty. I know there is no right answer, but are there some things I should not ask? Stuff I would be better off knowing?

edited for typo

[This message edited by Legatus at 7:05 PM, Wednesday, August 25th]

When my WW wrote her timeline for me, I told her to be include everything that she could remember doing with her AP. I'll be honest, it wasn't easy to read through it. It took me an entire day to read through the damn thing. Not because it was particularly wrong, but because I had to keep taking breaks every once in a while to recompose myself.

In the end, I think that it was better than if she had kept details out to spare me. Now I can make an informed decision of wheter to R or D in the future. You don't want to make a decision based on incomplete information, only for it to come to light later one way or the other and find out that you can't stick with your initial choice.

[This message edited by Tacit at 5:36 PM, Wednesday, August 25th]

I believe in full information. No hidden memories. They lose their luster in the light of day. No secrets between them.

How did this admission come about?

Will you notify the AP’s wife?

I still think you have a long way to go to get the full truth.

I’m sorry.

Part of me wants details. What happened after he held your hand? All the dirty details about the sex, positions, who's mouth was where, did she orgasm? Then there's another side of me that thinks it might be better not to have those mental images in my head. I plan to continue letting her complete the timeline and follow through with a polygraph. I've read other stories here where the WS admitted to having sex once and then later it comes out there were more partners and more sex.

Stevesn - How it came about. Yesterday I told her the timeline made no sense and specifically her story about the night went had a big gap in it. I said the description of the evening without sex makes no sense. All the buildup to the weekend and then alcohol, vulnerability, deep emotional bond, opportunity... I also explained to her I was already going to file for the maintenance separation. I told her I was sad for her because of all the anxiety and shame she's felt about lying for 4 years. I told her the only way forward for us is the full truth regardless of us being married or not. I told her the truth would lift a huge wieght off of her and while it might be hard to do, it would make her feel better in the long run. I asked her how the timeline would stand up to a polygraph. Her answer was "do they even have polygraphs around her?". So, it was clear she didn't think it was going to happen. During the talk she looked down and to the right for a 5 second period. That's when I knew for sure. I didn't push it anymore, I just said she should amend the timeline. I told her the truth would lift a huge weight off of her and while it might be hard to do, it would make her feel better in the long run.

She claims she was not thinking of or going there to have sex. It wasn't her plan. I'm not sure I believe that. I did ask if he wore a condom and she confirmed he did. His wife is unable to have children, so the fact he had a condom on hand lets me know he was planning on having sex.

I still plan on the polygraph.

I let my wife know that I am insisting the AP's wife is informed? She agreed. As I said before, part of that is for revenge against the AP, but my wife also told the AP wife that I was just crazy and paranoid and made it so she didn't believe me when I approached her. I want the story set stright.

I still plan on the polygraph.

Man, just get out. Is this really the person you want to spend the rest of your life with? All I see are years of pain, courtesy of your WW. You are not a priority to her at all.

Today she finally admitted they had sex during the trip to his house. She denies and sex before or since. She seems to be letting the information flow freely now.

The thing is you can't trust the denials. She's lied so much over the last five years. Is this latest confession her just trying to calibrate her story to minimize the impact on her? Don't avoid the details. You have to know if you have any thoughts of reconciliation. Any doubts will just fester and destroy any possibility of R.

Suggestion: you need to be present when she tells the other betrayed wife.

Cheaters have a way of making affairs seem less like an affair and more like the figment of a jealous person’s imagination.

I made my H tell his family as I was planning to D him. He told them "I cheated" and very few details. I called the family and gave them the blow by blow of how he was planning to dump me for the OW. They were shocked at everything he "left out".

[This message edited by The1stWife at 7:50 PM, Wednesday, August 25th]

All those cards she sent kinda take on a very different meaning now.

"Sorry I was an ass"… she sent you a card saying that knowing she had slept with this guy? I mean… on that alone I’m in the camp of "don’t bother with any poly" or whatever. Just end it now. Could she ever come remotely close to earning any sort of trust back?

Legatus,

I plan to continue letting her complete the timeline and follow through with a polygraph. I've read other stories here where the WS admitted to having sex once and then later it comes out there were more partners and more sex.

I think this is wise. You stated earlier that you wanted to know the truth (or as much as you can get) for closure. So, your strategy of pressing with questions about the timeline and not accepting omissions and lies appears to be paying off. Given the length of her affair and the deep emotional attachment, I do NOT believe she only had sex once. If Barry is the plate spinner you say he is, he would take full advantage of your wife's infatuation. Further, although you believe your wife was solely focused on Barry, I would not assume that is true. When you polygraph her, she needs to answer questions about any other partners she had an EA or PA with during your relationship (prior to marriage and during the marriage).

Once you are satisfied with the timeline and polygraph, have her write that letter to the OBS. You should confirm the OBS received the letter by having you and your wife call her. She should also write an apology letter to friends and family she lied to you about. Lastly, she needs to provide a copy of the letters to her IC, who is almost certainly been kept in the dark. After that, you can file for divorce whenever you feel ready.

Good luck!

[This message edited by BlueRaspberry at 8:00 PM, Wednesday, August 25th]

She flies out there for the race and I call her the first night. Turns out his wife was not in town, but was out of town on work for a last minute project she had to take care of. My wife knew about her not being there prior to going, but never told me about it. I started to dig that weekend. Everything you would expect to find. Phone calls well in excess of what I knew about. Tests at all time of the day and night.

When she came home I confronted her with the phone calls and asked if they were having a PA. She denied it, just friends, im being controlling and paranoid.

So I would print the above quote out and hand it to her. Tell her you took it from a note you wrote to a family member or online therapist.

Ask her what she thinks when she reads this. How does she feel about you back then. How does she feel about herself.

I know you have your plans. Mine would be to tell her that separation for a while is a necessity. That only with the full truth would you consider trying to build something new with her. Tell her she’s lied enough. Remind her of the lies she told back in the time the above quote describes.

Then tell her since then until now she’s been a liar every day. If she wants a chance with you, no more lies. No guarantees from you except that if you don’t get the full honest truth, you will be going your separate way.

And yes, that includes you both together informing the APs wife of the truth.

Rebuilding to me only starts when you have the honest truth. If there were more times, tell her you need to know now. It won’t change your current separation but it’s her only chance at a future with you in it.

Two quick questions. You’ve given how many years to try to fix this? Second question, aren’t you exhausted?

The one thing that consistently irks me is the behavior of the cheater and their "I don’t know what to do to reconcile" mentality.

🤔 hmmm….the cheater had plenty of creativity on how to cheat. They just throw their hands up and do very little in some cases to make amends or repair the damage.

Geez / google "how to make amends after cheating on my spouse" and there is all kind of info.

If my H behaved that way for even one minute I would have D him. I’m not his babysitter and I wasn’t helping fix the mess he created. He was on his own.

So I would print the above quote out and hand it to her. Tell her you took it from a note you wrote to a family member or online therapist.

Ask her what she thinks when she reads this. How does she feel about you back then. How does she feel about herself.

No, he shouldn't give an abusive serial liar the opportunity to tell him about her feelings, none of which can be tested for honesty by a polygraph. Particularly since it is extremely likely that she continues to lie.

Despite what you may believe, not everything can be solved by talking about our feelings.

Some truths finally came out. Pretty sure that one night sex has more to it. You should insist that she update her timeline and include all their other adventures including meet ups and also those events that you suspected that they might have had sex.

All the best!