SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

jujuchrist
Yes I know...she should have even had to sujest anything it should have all been up too me nothing from my wife.

Brokenheart

Clearly your wife still loves you after everything. Why isn’t that enough?

I think many WS think they have this big hole in their lives. Like they’re missing out on something that they can’t find within their marriage.

My wife and I had drifted apart prior to my A. I attributed her attitude as her not loving me anymore. What I discovered was I was the one who turned my back on the marriage. I conveniently ignored all the things my wife did to show her love for me. Without getting into specifics, the things my wife had to deal with while being married to me would have made most people run the other way. She stood by me through some incredibly dark periods in my life and I repaid her by having an A.

Seriously, take a good long look at your wife and really see her for the person she really is. Try and look at situations from her viewpoint. If you did A or B, does it show that you value her as a person, as a spouse, as the mother of your kids? Or is she more of a means to an end.

I really do hope this is the wake-up call you need.

By the way my plan is too follow her plan.

And if her plan is for you to move out? Not couch surfing in your house, not staying for a week with a friend, but an actual separate address for at least the six month time frame she mentioned? Would you follow that plan? Will you take responsibility for finding and organizing that living space, instead of expecting her to solve the problem for you?

BraveSirRobin
If that was her plan then I would give her what she needs yes. I would have to organize living arrangements for myself.

DaddyDom
Your words in your post hit me hard..I don't wanna be this kinda person and I am hoping the through the IC I can finally figure out why the hell I keep looking else where

Hey BH911, it looks like you've got the inkling of a desire to change for the better. That's well and good. That's also the easiest part of the work.

It's like saying, "I think I'll move to Nairobi, Kenya." Doable, but a LOT of hard work. What language do they speak, what kind of house will I live in, what is the food like? etc. etc.

This is going to be like a journey to the other side of the world to a foreign nation with a foreign language and customs completely foreign to you.

What are you going to do to study up on how healthy people act vs how badly damaged ones? What are you doing to learn about shame, about vulnerability and honesty?

I'd start with youtube Brene Brown talks. You can listen to them at night if you're having trouble sleeping and they're easily accessible and a good starting point. Her books are also available in audio form on Amazon.

BrokenHeart911

(MIGander we must be on the same wavelength tonight)

While you wait to start with IC, may I suggest a book? It is called "Rising Strong" by Brene Brown. There is no religion in this book, no politics, no "new age" topics, and it is not dry at all. It is really just a book about what we just talked about, which is how to face our demons and find strength in that, rather than fear and anger. But it is told in a story style of sorts. You can find it on Amazon (look in the new and used section) for as little as a $1.55. That's a reasonable investment.

I know you are feeling a lot of things right now. Take a pause. Breathe. And allow those feelings to come in, even if just a little. It's okay. It hurts but it won't kill you, and it won't crush you.

As some additional "homework" to get you started gently, take a few moments to think of people you really admire, the kind of people that everyone loves, admires and trusts. Think of as many of those kinds of people as you can, and make a list (this is just for you, no one else unless you want it to be) of them. Then, think about WHAT you admire about them. Are they caring? Are they reliable? Do they make others feel seen and heard? Are they brave? Smart? Strong? Dedicated? List the qualities about them that you admire. Finally, close your eyes, and think about yourself. Don't compare who you are now to this "ideal person". Who you are now in the current chapter, and that chapter needs to end. Instead, picture yourself as "that person" who has those qualities you admire so much. And notice too, while you are trying to do this, if any weird, negative roadblocks come up. For example, when you try to picture yourself as the ideal person you want to be, does your body tense up or react anywhere? Do you feel fear, anger, or resistance of some kind to picturing yourself this way? Do you find any of it triggery for any reason?

For now, just notice these things, and if you like, see if you can unpack some stuff on your own. When you get to IC, I would recommend sharing your thoughts about this with them, it would be a great starting point, and will let your therapist know your goal... that you want to be that person, and need a little help figuring out what's holding you back.

It's a difficult road. Facing yourself and changing yourself is not for wimps. But you can do it, if you let yourself.

Let's get real here.

Honestly I'm not surprised you're  here telling us you cheated again. I saw that a mile away. I have zero empathy for you, and only came here to say that your best move is to just leave. I don't think you're a good candidate for R. I don't think you will be, not any time soon, and probably not ever. I think your BW has been through enough at your hands don't you think? Don't you think it would be kind to release her from you?  I think its human nature to want to see the best in people, to hope for change. But what is a more stronger human nature is the pure selfishness that you display. You can't have both worlds so take the easy option, get out and live your life the way you want.

If you were to get real honest for once, don't you think there will be more? There has always been more, and its not going to stop. And I would bet a lot that you still harbor secrets. From one serial cheater to another, I've come to realize that the alignment of certain things must take form to truly change, and I don't see it it happening for you. Mostly because one has to want it, and it obvious (no matter how you might try to convince yourself, or your wife) you don't want it. You've made that clear.

You like it far too much. I know no one wants to admit these things. And if you were oh.. I don't know ..not married no one could judge you for it, sex positive and all that. But here you are super married and a big family. So it will probably feel extremely shitty for awhile adjusting to the realization that you didn't want to step up. But hey! on the plus side, you can go on with the freedom to fuck anyone you want anytime and you won't have a single person in the world that gets hurt. Also, another plus, no more hiding no more lying just doing what you love.

You've provided an out for yourself, get that postnup written up and go get your freedom back.

Is the crisis over? ... Bueller?

There never was a crisis in his mind. Never will be. After more than a decade of this its very very clear that cheating is just a remorsless thing he enjoys and the aftermath is nothing more than getting past sweeping it under the rug, its worked in the past and he expects it to continue. I'm shocked more than anything that OP actually thought he could get away with it, he gave himself away and doesn't even realize it, not to mention keeping his BW on constant high alert.

I feel like I completely derailed this post in a way. I hadn't logged-in in forever and saw that shit.. I had zero tolerance. A small part of me (afterwards of course) thought damn what if he really was seeking genuine help? but a larger more valid part thought nah he only post when shit hits the fan and I felt the need to direct it where its deserved.

OP has never taken this seriously, making it incredibly difficult to take OP seriously.

[This message edited by foreverlabeled at 1:48 PM, Tuesday, March 15th]

I hear ya.

I do think sometimes the 2x4 approach is needed- in this case for sure.

Either way, BH911, if you're still reading, we're still willing to help. We're just not going to sugar coat it.

2x4's suck, and I got my share of them. They're necessary and good to have.

Stop lying to yourself. Start being brutally honest and find the strength to change. You don't have to be ashamed of your past so long as you learn and build yourself a new future. People respect a humbled and reformed, honest person more than a whitewashing hypocrite any day.

I am still here and not going anywhere...just trying to keep my sanity being way from my kids and not seeing my wife..

I'm always on the side of people healing and getting healthy. I just am. My wife and I watch the TV show "Intervention" a lot. On the show, you often see people who are beyond hope, people who lie, cheat, steal and sell their bodies for one more fix while dragging their families through the mud with them. People who have been abusive and out of touch assholes for years, and honestly, just one needle away from death. And then they get an intervention. Their families might get therapy too. And sometimes, those people turn their lives around, even though they've been "lost causes" for years and years.

I'm not under any illusions as to what amount of effort it will take BH911 to heal, and that it will take courage and determination that he has not shown us yet, at all. And I can't ignore his wife and kids and the damage being done to them. However, my wife pointed out something that his wife had written to him the other day. His wife told him that if he really truly makes the effort to change, the folks on SI would support him in that effort. And I think she's right. Has he been largely absent on this site, and in pretty much all other outlets for support? Yes, 100% he's made no real effort and has continued to deceive and harm. But so did most other WS's... until they didn't. Despite his actions, I don't see his continuing to be a liar and cheater as helpful in any way. In other words, WHY would we wish him to never get better? Encourage him to not get better? Insist that he isn't worthy of trying to be more? I can't do that. IMO, all human beings deserve the chance to change, to have their weaknesses identified and the chance to overcome that which pulls them down. There is no upside to his wife or kids if he remains locked in a "wayward brain". There is a benefit to them if he gets healthier however. So to me, I feel like encouraging him to be a better person is the right way to go, despite the fact that he's not done it before.

I speak from experience here... we all begin with a narrative in our heads. If that narrative tells us that we're losers, that we'll never succeed, that we aren't worthy of being happy, are incapable of being good, and deserve nothing but our disgust and hate, then that's not much of a motivator to be or do better. "You'll never amount to anything" are words of hate and destruction, they help NO ONE. I would never encourage someone to cheat, right? So why would I encourage them to fail and not even try to be better? Where's the upside in that?

Sometimes it feels as if "making the WS pay for what they did by suffering" is the goal here. I suppose that revenge and payback must feel satisfying on some emotional level, that some sense of "justice" is obtained. I just disagree. I understand wanting payback, it's a natural "go-to" when someone has injured you first. But I'll be honest with you. Given the choice between having someone "go to jail" for life and never being more than that, or having the person turn their lives around and be someone better, having them work to "make things right" in whatever way they can... for me, that's always the preferable choice. I see no value in suffering or in punishment, or in revenge. I see no justice there, only retribution.

So it's not that I disagree with those that think he should just GTFO and go crawl in a hole and die. That IS what he deserves, and GTFO is something he needs to do for everyone's safety and well-being, his own included. If continues to be a dick, then I'll treat him accordingly. But if he asks for help... I'll offer it. If for no other reason, if not for him, then I can least say that his wife deserves to have an ex-husband that isn't a crazy shithead, and his kids absolutely deserve a father that can BE a father. He might deserve your hate, but what about them? Why do they deserve to suffer just so we can say, "Told you so"?

Part of what took me so long to pull my head out of my own ass was simply the fact that I had such a negative view of myself, and felt that I was neither worthy nor capable of being more. Most of the messages coming at me reinforced that idea. I'm lucky that some part of me refused to give up, and I'm also lucky that a precious few people had my back and encouraged me to not give in. For a long time I listened to the voices that said I was a POS and that I should just go away and stop making my wife suffer. And yes, I did need to do that, but only because I wasn't capable at the time of being more. Eventually however, I learned to listen to those that said there was a better path, and they were right. I can be a better person, a better spouse, better father today because I didn't listen to the voices that had failed me all my life, and instead listened to those who had succeeded in conquering their demons. I hate to sound so corny, but "I gave love a chance" and learned to love myself enough that I ended up seeing the world in a different light. It has changed my entire world, and while life is far from perfect, I see improvements in everything. At least I am no longer defined by my own trauma, and no longer plagued by it. That fact alone has allowed me to live more honestly, authentically and with greater compassion and empathy for others. I think everyone in the world deserves that.

Sorry for the soapbox. Given the state of the world right now, there is so much hate, so much anger, and so very much finger-pointing and blame, and it is destroying us all. Some of it is due to "bad people" so to speak, yes. But a lot of it is due to people that are convinced that punishment is preferable to reform. I would rather see BH911 fight the good fight and be someone better, than to see him "prove us right" and continue the way he's been going?

Do I expect it to go that way? The chances are slim. But they are zero if he decides to "accept he is a POS" and continues to live that way. So I'll give him the truth, but I'll also make sure he's aware that there can be a better way out. It's all up to him.

Wow DD, just wow! I think I’ll keep coming back to that post when I hit a shame spiral or shut down.

BH911 Please read this and do what you need to do and keep at it.

DaddyDom
Wow broke down and totally lost it after reading that post..

We are fortunate to have you on SI Ddom.

Alright I am now back at home with family and my wife. I need to start showing that I can do this I can change. I am not sure what I can say to my wife..I can't keep saying I am sorry..that is not right..I am not sure I can open up and begin to talk to her..

I am not sure I can open up and begin to talk to her..

you literally have nothing to lose. You cannot say anything to make yourself look worse. Your marriage depends on it. If I were you I'd start somewhere, anywhere. It doesn't have to delve deep into your soul to begin. You just gotta start.

Perhaps you could start by asking what she needs and take that and run with it.

I know this might sound a little ass-backward to you, but I advise that you don't try to do anything in terms of saying you are sorry or even trying to open up to her. I say this for two reasons. First, that ship has sailed. Words mean nothing, especially when we say them and then do the opposite. You've been saying sorry for over a decade, nothing has changed as a result of it, so just stop. A hollow apology is worse than no apology. Stop saying you are sorry and just start doing all the things you've promised. That will mean much more to her, promise.

The second reason is that you are still trying to obtain your own desired outcome, your own goal. Saying you are sorry is about how YOU feel. It has value to YOU, it has none to her. Wanting things to work out between you is what YOU want. She's been talking about divorce.

Here is the thing to understand. For the past 14 (or however many) years, you've been consumed by what you need, and what you want, and when someone has to lose, it's always her. Every time you get what you want, she gets hurt. Every time you need something, you find a way to get it, even if it takes lying and hiding and all sorts of effort. But when it comes to what she needs, all that effort and concern goes away. Maybe you feel that you are taking care of your own needs and she can take care of hers, but do you honestly make her feel loved and appreciated? If she isn't being loved and appreciated then the hell would she want to be closer to you? Again, I don't say these things to be mean... I've been in your shoes, and thought and felt the same way you do. This is just what I see and I am relaying it to you, like an announcer at a football game, commenting on the play-by-play, the player stats, and where the team is strong and weak.

Look, if you were building a house, and started to try and work on the roof before the foundation was even poured... well, if you saw someone doing that, what advice would you give them? Would you tell them that building a roof is useless when a foundation, utils, walls, doors and everything else is needed first?

You guys having a relationship is a roof. You not feeling like shit is a satellite. So let's start with the foundation, okay?

Here's an idea for you. It will give you lots of safe stuff to talk about and won't require you to come up with topics, at all. Remember that Brene Brown book I mentioned? Did you get a copy? If you can't afford one let me know I'll buy you a copy. Then, make a deal with your wife (if she's willing). The deal is simply this. Some time each evening, perhaps before bed is a good time, take 15-30 minutes and take turns reading the book to each other. Some chapters are short and can be read in that time, others you may have to break up over several days. Either way, when you are done reading (or when you read something interesting and the mood strikes you) TALK about what you read, what she meant, what you took from it. That's all. Other than the cost of the book it costs nothing, you can make your own schedule, you can make your own rules, just the two of you. The great thing about this is that it will give you that "in" to talk that you asked for, and while I can't speak for her, my guess is that she would be really happy to have a conversation with you where she doesn't have to hate you and you don't have be either defensive or angry or shame filled. I recommend this from experience. My wife and I did this, and while it didn't fix everything, it did help us to learn to talk and communicate and share in a very easy and pleasant way.

I take it that you don't like to talk much, or write much, or read books, and I get that. Everyone is different. This is one of those things however where certain efforts need to be made. A football player who doesn't want to exercise or practice isn't going to get far. If you wanna play, you gotta practice. If you want to build a relationship, you need to talk and interact.

If you want other safe things to do, just ask. She likes to cook, right? Would you help her cook a meal? Pick a recipe together and then try to make it as a team. Play a board game together. Go take a walk together, you don't even have to talk. Ask her to join you in a project you both always put off for later. Go fix all those loose doors in the stable or whatever needs doing. The point is to show some interest in HER, in doing things with her, spending time with her. And if she says no, she doesn't want to do those things... then that needs to be okay. Don't get mad, unless its yourself you are getting mad at. Things are this hard and suck this much because of your efforts so far, so that. Then you go work on yourself. See the IC, join a support group, and if you can't do those things, SI is free and honestly, it's sort of an aggregated support system, you'll get advice here that money can't buy, from people who have actually gone through this, and who actually care.

Oh, and while your kids have no reason to trust or believe you either... they probably DO need to hear from you. No excuses, no justification, no minimizing. Just say, "I've done a lot of things I'm not proud of, and I know that in doing so, I hurt you, and didn't give you the love, guidance and protection that I should have. I did not put you first. I have no excuse, I just want you to know that you deserved better from me, and that's on me. It's not a reflection of your value as a person. I want to be a better person and I'm taking steps to do so. You make me want to be a better person. That's all I have to say for now, but if you want to tell me how you feel, I'll promise to sit and listen." And then you shut up and let them go off on you in whatever way they need to, because the goal is to let them get their feelings out. You can worry about how you feel about things later, just listen to them, and believe what they say to you.

FWIW, it was really, really nice to see you post here again today. While I can feel how uncomfortable it is for you, you are still making the effort, and that's all that's being asked of you right now. Just keep trying. You've made a lot of mistakes, but you've always accomplished some really wonderful things in your life. Look at the great kids you made if nothing else. Look at some of the rare skills you have. My gut tells me that you suffered through some rough shit in life, probably in your youth, and whatever that was, it left you feeling forgotten and unwanted and unimportant, and so you live a life that reflects that crappy view of yourself. Don't believe it, not for a second. Even after hurting everyone, your wife and kids... they still love you. They also hate you, yes, but for some reason, they also still love you, and you need to figure out why, because whatever it is, it is something good and wonderful. Otherwise they'd have ditched your ass long ago. Your kids want and need a dad that makes them feel important, appreciated, protected and loved. Go be that man and I promise you will love yourself as a result.

Keep coming back.

foreverlabeled
I try I do talk with her and let her know about what is happening at my work place and make sure she knows where I am and if there is any contact between me and my affair person