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Newest Member: Betrayed1000XBy1

Wayward Side :
How to address defensiveness?

Topic is Sleeping.
stop

 Seekinghelptoo (original poster new member #79848) posted at 6:23 AM on Sunday, March 27th, 2022

I know I have caused the carnage in our marriage and realize I am incredibly defensive about my actions. I never considered myself selfish but I have been able to reflect upon some of the decisions I’ve made prior to the A that I made which served my interests over our relationships. I can understand that many of my decisions were based in fear and to help protect myself but instead have left a lot of damage and lead to me being more closed off to honest and open communication.

Through your recovery journeys, what have you found that has helped you to identify when you are being defensive? Also how have you found ways to help you address and change your gut reaction to defend your integrity/actions? Thank you for all of your help.

posts: 9   ·   registered: Jan. 27th, 2022
id 8726161
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Bulcy ( member #74034) posted at 12:21 PM on Sunday, March 27th, 2022

what have you found that has helped you to identify when you are being defensive?

I now try and listen to BS and listen properly. For a long time (years) I was hyper defensive. picking up on semantics or whenever BS called me out I would say "we didn't have sex" Sex in my mind was penetrative sex, while knowing other things happened. Lots of deflection and lies. Then when this was pointed out to me I would get angry and defensive. Causing arguments to try and end the conversation because I did not want to be having one. I would not listen to BS when she would accuse me of doing this. I have since read books, listened to pod casts, written and read here on SI and gone to both IC and MC. Most recently I read a book called "How to stop hurting the woman you love" (this book is focused on male abuse to his wife or partner) it is a domestic abuse book covering many different types of abuse both physical and emotional to financial....This book, like many before it point to defensiveness and anger as being a way the WS controls the BS. This book really hit home (for many reasons) but it made me realise that every time I get defensive I an trying to control. I chose to get angry. The book gives an example of a guy in couselling who said he cannot control his anger, he just explodes sometimes and either becomes physical or physically intimidating to his wife. He said he cannot control it. When asked how often he "explodes" at work, he said never. I would be sacked if I did....This pointing out he can control his anger when he wants to. (The book makes the point a lot more eloquently that I just did). So, I'm now trying to keep this in mind when talking. Honesty and keeping cool are imperative. We've agreed that BS can point out if she feels I am becoming defensive, but in a way that I will not get annoyed at! Difficult, but I think we're getting there. Also look into timeouts, they are very useful tools in the early stages of "getting it" and working on yourself. I feel myself getting defensive now. It does not mean for one minute I don't but I do see it.

Also how have you found ways to help you address and change your gut reaction to defend your integrity/actions?

Kind of summarised above. You've got to learn when you're doing it and stop. Defensiveness in my experience either stems from trying to hide lies or feeling utterly ashamed with yourself. Shame is a killer to getting your head out of your ass. Own what you have done and tell BS the truth when discussing. Work on trying to make yourself a better person and the defensive behaviour will reduce. I had to accept whenever BS was asking me for new or more information, she was not trying to catch me out or gain evidence for my infidelity. Hey, she has a shit load of that! I have to remember EVERY time we speak, that she is trying to make sense of what happened and how things progressed into me being a serial cheater. So, deep breaths, think about your response, don't say the first thing that comes to mind (usually defensiveness), remind yourself why you are discussing the affair(s) and be honest.

On the honestly thing....BS and I have a 24 hour rule. If I've told a lie or screwed up in some way..Anything (having thoughts about the affair or other women, seeing AP or affair related people that sort of thing) I have 24 hours to come clean. After which it is an official lie and becomes a real problem. Coming clean within 24 hours does not necessarily get me a pat on the back, but it does give us a chance to discuss.

In short it take work on yourself to see and try to understand why....Then stopping yourself from going down that road. Sounds easy eh!?!? It is hard, especially if you've operated in this was for many years. Self improvement is something you need to want to do and really want to work on it.

Good luck

WH (50's)

Multiple sexual, emotional and online affairs. Financial infidelity and emotional abuse. Physical abuse and intimidation.

D-days 2003, 2017, multiple d-days and TT through 2018 to 2023. 28 years of destructive and health damaging choice

posts: 375   ·   registered: Mar. 12th, 2020   ·   location: UK
id 8726175
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Bulcy ( member #74034) posted at 3:33 PM on Sunday, March 27th, 2022

defend your integrity

Don't try and defend your integrity. Realise that if you had the integrity you're trying to defend, you would not have had the affair. Now you have to work on renewing that integrity and honesty rather than defending what little you had. Please don't see this as an attack. For years I thought I was a really nice bloke with high integrity...Hey, maybe I am a nice bloke, to others and maybe I have integrity in my working life. To my BS I qualify as neither.

WH (50's)

Multiple sexual, emotional and online affairs. Financial infidelity and emotional abuse. Physical abuse and intimidation.

D-days 2003, 2017, multiple d-days and TT through 2018 to 2023. 28 years of destructive and health damaging choice

posts: 375   ·   registered: Mar. 12th, 2020   ·   location: UK
id 8726204
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MIgander ( member #71285) posted at 4:38 PM on Monday, March 28th, 2022

Hi SHT,

I was getting defensive just this morning!

I find myself tightening in my muscles and holding in my breath. My body clues me in to when I'm feeling defensive by the reactions in my muscles. Tuning in to my body's language has really helped me clue in to when I'm getting defensive, hurt, scared or sad.

When this happens, I consider it a win when I ask for a time out because, "I'm feeling attacked right now and becoming defensive. Can I clarify something?" That way, I own my feeling, I clue my BH into how his behavior (intended or not) is affecting me. When I keep it to how I'm feeling and how I'm becoming in my reactions, it takes BH out of the equation and allows him to not feel personally attacked as well.

This is becoming easier to do, but it's taken me over 2 years to get here. To a place where I can even understanding what I'm feeling when I'm feeling it, understand why I'm feeling it, and act appropriately.

Don't take me as an expert though, just last night I lost my shit about a text someone sent him... rolleyes

WW/BW Dday July 2019. BH/WH- multiple EA's. Denial ain't just a river in Egypt.

posts: 1190   ·   registered: Aug. 15th, 2019   ·   location: Michigan
id 8726391
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foreverlabeled ( member #52070) posted at 7:25 PM on Monday, March 28th, 2022

Can you clarify what you are getting defensive over?

I think that would help in the advice you receive.

Sometimes standing up for yourself is called for, but context matters.

posts: 2597   ·   registered: Mar. 1st, 2016   ·   location: southeast
id 8726440
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DaddyDom ( member #56960) posted at 4:33 PM on Tuesday, March 29th, 2022

The amygdala is the core part of the limbic system (emotional processing) in our brains. It is the part we often refer to as our "lizard brain" because it produces our "primary emotions" such as fear, and sadness. It is also part of our "fight or flight" processing. Emotions that come from our amygdala are not under our control. In other words, if your amygdala is sending out messages that we are afraid, we cannot consciously tell it to shut up. What we CAN do however is use the higher processing power of our brains (pre-frontal cortex work) to decide how to respond to those primal emotions.

Anger and defensiveness are not primary emotions, they are chosen responses to primary emotions. When we are afraid of something, or sad (ashamed) about something, we often get upset as a result, because our brains start to "short circuit" as our fight or flight systems kick in as a response. The idea is to reprogram this process, to choose new, healthier responses to our fears and worries. Over time, how we respond to things that upset us can change. This process works particularly well for specific, reoccurring emotions to equally specific stimuli. In other words, if your spouse asks you to take the trash out every week, and every week you get pissed when they ask that, then that's easier to reprogram than something more general, such as reacting to upsetting stories on the evening news. But in both cases, we can change our responses by making conscious choices and telling our brains that this is "the new black".

There are two ways (or more) to approach this.

The first way is what I call "blind reprogramming". This method involves identifying a problem and choosing a new thought process. So given the above example, we may notice that we get upset every time we're asked to take the trash out. The way to fix this is to consciously be aware of our own anger and defensiveness, and when it happens again, we stop. Take a moment. Close your eyes and take a few deep breaths. Then start to give yourself instructions almost exactly as you would give a 5-year-old the same advice. "I am just being asked to take the trash out. I do this every week. Getting upset only makes it worse. From now on, instead of feeling upset, I am going to just get up and do it without complaint or further thought, and then when I'm done, it's over, and I won't think about it more". Every week, you go through this same process, making a conscious effort to put new thought patterns into your brain. This can work surprisingly well if you remain open to it. It can also work very quickly.

Part of the trick here is to not give in to the distractions that your brain will throw at you. It is quite possible that initially, your brain will fight even harder to make you upset. Don't fall for it. The best way to respond to this is to acknowledge it. Say to yourself, "Here I go again, I feel myself getting angry even though I'm trying not to. I am acknowledging this feeling and it is a valid feeling. I am not sweeping it under the rug. But not today, Satan. If I just take the trash out then the feeling goes away, so from now on, I choose to respond differently". Then take the damn trash out and get on with the rest of your life.

What scares most people off about this process is simply the fact that our brains will "fight the change" at first, and often, this can feel like our minds sending the same messages of anger and defensiveness so much and so fast that we barely have time to even start thinking something else. That's okay, that's normal, and natural. If your brain complains a thousand times, then correct it a thousand times. And don't expect perfection or success the first time, or second, or tenth. Each time, it gets a little better. Compare it to learning to play the violin. At first, you'll suck at it. A few months later however and you'll have some control you didn't before. A year later and you are playing a song. Keep practicing changes your thoughts, and over time, it will get easier to do, even with new challenges to overcome.

The second, more complete way to approach this is to do the same thing, but also to throw in understanding and compassion. This involves us digging to really understand not only THAT we are afraid or sad (which is resulting in our anger or defensiveness), but WHY we are feeling those emotions. Often, understanding the WHY of our emotions allows us to change our responses more easily and with even better results. Expanding on our example, we may realize that taking the trash out was something our parents made us do every week. We didn't ask for it, didn't want to do it, weren't given a choice, and then often, it became a point of argument or even shame. You might begin to realize that your parents used the trash as emotional blackmail (e.g. You want us to buy you a car, but you can't even do something (for us) as simple as taking the trash out without being screamed at, so why do you deserve anything from us?). Or they may simply point out that you never do it without being asked, which might make you feel ashamed for being "useless or unhelpful" in their eyes and yours. It's important to be really honest during this process. It can be so easy to just say, "Well, my Dad was an asshole about it, so it pisses me off" and leave it there, but that's not very self-reflective. Your dad didn't put a gun to your head and force you to be pissed off, you chose to be pissed off, so dig deeper. Whatever the answer is, it will be about YOU and only you, because only you feel your own emotions and only you choose how to respond to them.

It should go without saying that involving an IC in this process would be preferable, if possible. But you CAN do it on your own if needed.

This second process allows us to add understanding to our new programming. So in this case, we might make the following reasoning, "I'm an adult now. I'm not fighting with my parents anymore and so I don't have to go directly to anger when the trash has to go out. I can do it when I want to, how I want to. I'm not a kid anymore and don't want to think like one anymore either. Getting angry is stupid. It won't change anything and it doesn't make me feel good, in fact, it usually makes things worse. Screw that. It's my house, my life, and my trash, so I just need to "adult up" and do it and move on. From now on, the damn trash goes out every Friday at 5pm. I'll put it on my calendar and when it comes up, I'll just do it." And all of a sudden, the anger can be gone. You just start taking the trash out but skipping the whole part about getting upset. Pretty soon, you start applying this same thinking to other parts of your life too. You just pay the bills instead of complaining. You just let that asshole on the highway get in front of you without the middle finger and horn going off. You wash the dishes in the sink even though it's someone else's turn because you are there and can. You just start to CHOOSE your responses to your primary emotions, and in doing so...

Everything gets easier. You feel less stressed, less angry and upset all the time. Removing the defensiveness begins to feel like a ball and chain have been cut from your ankle and it is freeing to say the very least. You begin to realize that you have held yourself back in life because you let fear or sadness drive your actions rather than just taking ownership of things, and you start to live life. Small things bother you less. Big things don't explode so fast. You stop to ask questions rather than react. It becomes a domino effect if you let it.

Don't get me wrong, we are humans and humans get angry sometimes. Hell, I just got PISSED the other night simply because my dinner plans to make homemade pizza were ruined when I discovered that the sauce and pepperoni I bought were both moldy! (Yuck!) But I started to realize that I was getting snippy with my wife and even the dogs, and that my anger levels were off the chart given the circumstances. Sure, good reason to be disappointed or even mildly upset, but not PISSED. So I took a moment to go upstairs, breathe deep, and gain some perspective. I realized I wasn't going to die if I had to eat something other than what I planned for (I was mostly upset that plans changed last minute and stuff like that can throw me off easily) and that it certainly wasn't my wife's fault or problem (or the dogs). But I gave myself permission to be annoyed to a certain point, but decided to "take it down a notch" however I had to, and within the hour I was able to chill out and no fights took place. I also took a moment to share my frustrations with my wife and just let her know that I knew "it was just me", so that she didn't have to feel like I was unaware of my own frustrations.

You don't have to be perfect. You just have to be someone you are proud of at the end of the day. If you aren't proud of who you are and how you reacted to things that day, then make a decision to change that in the future, and then DO IT.

Me: WS
BS: ISurvivedSoFar
D-Day Nov '16
Status: Reconciling
"I am floored by the amount of grace and love she has shown me in choosing to stay and fight for our marriage. I took everything from her, and yet she chose to forgive me."

posts: 1446   ·   registered: Jan. 18th, 2017
id 8726643
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Copec ( new member #79885) posted at 10:43 PM on Tuesday, March 29th, 2022

I for sure can be defensive. I have learned to control that and listen. I still have the initial flooding of pain and sadness when my husband starts pointing out the terrible things I’ve done. Because I am ashamed. I’m getting better at accepting and listening. The hardest part for me is he also cheated. My cheating influenced his cheating significantly cause he felt the disconnect. But I’m not really allowed to say, "you should understand the lying and sneaking, you did it too". So many times he wants to understand. My reasons for cheating and his are different. He knew something was up with me so he went ahead and did it. I have deep issues that I’m addressing in counseling and did not cheat because of him. Yet he doesn’t understand how I could do that. Yet he did it. So shouldn’t he have some understanding of how that happens? Anyway. I can’t control him. I can only control my response, my growth. So I’m just looking at my stuff and dealing with it like his doesn’t matter because i caused it. I have no other way to do it. I can’t force him to do IC. I’m just moving forward knowing I am doing the best I can right now.

WS/mad hatter-2+ years post DDay.

posts: 35   ·   registered: Feb. 4th, 2022
id 8726754
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 Seekinghelptoo (original poster new member #79848) posted at 10:11 PM on Wednesday, April 6th, 2022

Tuning in to my body's language has really helped me clue in to when I'm getting defensive, hurt, scared or sad.

When this happens, I consider it a win when I ask for a time out because, "I'm feeling attacked right now and becoming defensive. Can I clarify something?" That way, I own my feeling, I clue my BH into how his behavior (intended or not) is affecting me. When I keep it to how I'm feeling and how I'm becoming in my reactions, it takes BH out of the equation and allows him to not feel personally attacked as well

MIGander,

This is really helpful. I can definitely feel my body crawl into itself when I feel defensive, triggered, or scared. I will certainly try to be more aware of it and be more vocal.

posts: 9   ·   registered: Jan. 27th, 2022
id 8728368
helpless

 Seekinghelptoo (original poster new member #79848) posted at 10:29 PM on Wednesday, April 6th, 2022

Can you clarify what you are getting defensive over?

I think that would help in the advice you receive.

Sometimes standing up for yourself is called for, but context matters.

Foreverlabeled, I guess I would say defensiveness about my next moves. My A was with a coworker and my BH understandably, wants me to get a new job. I am actively looking but I feel where I apply will depend largely on wether we can work through things or we get divorced. I feel in my heart that we can make it through this and we have love worth saving. I want to get a new job and have found several to apply to but feel stuck not knowing what to do. I don't want to start somewhere new only then to move (because we have been talking about moving for a while now but were held back because of Covid) and then have an unreasonable commute that causes stress in our lives. There is probably more but that's the first thing I thought about.

My defensiveness is more of a self retreat and shut down which makes it hard to address... I feel like I have to protect myself, but not from him necessarily but against my worries and fears. Perhaps the defensiveness is just a mask hiding deeper un-dealt with fears.

posts: 9   ·   registered: Jan. 27th, 2022
id 8728372
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 Seekinghelptoo (original poster new member #79848) posted at 10:33 PM on Wednesday, April 6th, 2022

You don't have to be perfect. You just have to be someone you are proud of at the end of the day.

DaddyDom, this really resonated with me. I think I need to work on identifying when I'm feeling defensive and give some compassion to myself instead of shaming myself for bring upset.

posts: 9   ·   registered: Jan. 27th, 2022
id 8728374
Topic is Sleeping.
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