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Speaking from my experience with my BH, I believe what your BH is looking for is context. I, too, told myself that I was giving my BH the most important information by admitting to the sex and "I love yous." However, I minimized what was going on in my own head and heart. I didn't give him any sense of what it was really like with the OM, and to him, that information was crucial in measuring my potential for reconciliation. He needed to evaluate how vulnerable he was, how deeply he had been wronged, how fondly and/or graphically I held my memories, and how willing I was to "invite him into the room" and see with his own eyes what he was up against.

Gently, if I put myself in your BH's shoes, I too would think you were being sarcastic. The answers to "how did he kiss you" could be: Slowly. Gently. Deeply. Passionately. Or: "Perfunctorily, like he had to get through it to get on to the sex." Or "Reservedly; he had thin lips and tended to keep them closed." Or "Scratchily, because he grew stubble really fast." There are a thousand answers, and they add up to questions of skill, physical attributes, and intimacy. Did you kiss for hours? Did the kissing become routine? Did he hold your face in his hands? Was it like a Nicholas Sparks novel or a drunken slobberfest?

I get that it's no fun for you to have to describe this, and it's certainly not going to be fun for him to hear it, unless your AP really was a lousy kisser and you can be honest about his ineptitude. But don't lie. Authenticity is everything here. No matter what the reality is, I think you can do better than "with his mouth."

I agree with BSR.

Your BH would know that you would kiss on the mouth, and to him, you had not put any effort in the answer. You did not expand on it, so you must be hiding something from him still.

With little to no explanations, your BHs mind will start going wild. 'She must have enjoyed the kisses so much that she still wants to hide it from me'. That you must be still thinking about it with fondness, relishing the kisses with your AP, and want to keep it as a special secret between you and your AP.

Brevity in your answers will do you no good, as it indicates a lack of interest in answering his questions 'properly'. It also indicates that you are still protecting yourself, that you are not willing to be open to your BH.

Low effort = Low chance of R.

Betrayed husband here.

I did not learn of the affair until it had been over for five years.

As usual, BraveSirRobin is spot on.

I would have zero patience for "with his mouth."

Thank you, and if it sounds like I making excuses for myself that are not the case.
It's been 5 days short of 12 years after D day

He asked me 1000 million questions and I answered. In my mind, I was very committed and really really believed that I answered
When, where, what and never lied about it.
The fact that this is not good enough is what I do not grasp.

How is the graphic detail going to make him feel better, make him accept, and stop the mind movies, etc.?

To stick to the kiss example, my BS doesn't kiss me anymore and that is without the detail. Yes, maybe I am still selfish and still trying to protect myself, but how is the detail going to change anything?
I am first to agree that I do not understand and do not get what my BS is going through, it is not that I am not willing to give him the info and or detail, it is just that whatever is not good enough. I get that the trust is broken, in his words, it doesn't matter if we had sex together one or 1000 times, and or if it was 1 or 1000 men. The fact that I am damaged goods, the fact that I did it once, was one time too many.

I really do not think that I am not putting in the effort, I tried the "I am sorry for the hurt I caused" I am sorry for how I make you feel, I take 100% accountability for everything and anything BUT IT IS STILL NOT GOOD ENOUGH. He tells me straight that sorry does not make anything right.

He has an expectation of something must happen. But he can not tell me what that something is, and what he expects to achieve.

I will probably ask in the reconciliation section as well, but how often do people say they are happily reconciled and just to be back to square one a year or 5 or 10 or 15, or 20 later?

He keeps on telling me that he wants the full movie seen, not even puzzle pieces are good enough. Remember this was more than 12 years ago, talking about it we are coming closer to the "anniversary" of D-day being 14 Feb.

If someone hasn't healed, however many years ago is meaningless.

My wife didn't even confess her A until 17-years after the fact, and how long ago doesn't matter at all, if someone is still processing the pain, that's all in real time, now, today.

If your husband is anything like me, he wants a full accounting of what was lost, of what he is being asked to accept.

Personally, I needed all the horrible information for a few reasons.

One, it destroys the fantasy of the A. Retelling the events shows it for what it was. The A isn't special. No A is special, and it helps to KNOW this.
Two, if my spouse is brave enough to tell me the unvarnished truth, she earned trust back. And I earn trust back by not attacking for the truth.
Three, what I don't know, I make up. My mind generates what I think happened and it is far worse than what really happened. Our brains fill in the blanks automatically.

I will probably ask in the reconciliation section as well, but how often do people say they are happily reconciled and just to be back to square one a year or 5 or 10 or 15, or 20 later?

I can only ever speak for my R, but we haven't been back to square one. A couple months from 7-years of rebuilding and recovery and we're good.

But I also worked on me. Both partners have to WANT the M.

Oldwounds is correct. Both partners must want the marriage in order to successfully reconcile.

I believe you said that both of you were fighting a lot before your confession. Was the marriage on the rocks at the time of your affair? Do the both of you still want to really be married to each other?

I am not a therapist nor a counselor, so I can't analyze what is going on in both your minds or why you two are acting the way you now are acting. Looking on from the outside, your marriage wasn't even healthy before your affair, and it certainly is not healthy now. Not sure why you two both want to stay married. Just my humble opinion.

[This message edited by lrpprl at 3:33 PM, Thursday, February 9th]

Different people want different levels of details at different times. My reco is to ask your H how much he wants and to give him that level.

I wanted details because I thought they would help explain why my W cheated. I still don't understand that at a gut level, but her willingness to answer my questions at the level of detail I wanted did serve other important functions. First, she showed some sort of love by giving me what I wanted. Second, she demystified her A. Third, perhaps most important, giving me the details I wanted was a way of showing she took responsibility for her actions.

By holding back the details, you've put up a wall between you and your H. You're the only one who can take that wall down.

For instance, he asked me how he kissed me - my answer was with his mouth. That was seen as sarcasm, and I am making a joke of this and that I am not taking things seriously, etc. Please explain to me, how was I supposed to answer a question like "How did he kiss you"?

Did he take your jaw in his hand and guide your lips to his, ending in a soft but still firm kiss? Did he throw you up against the wall and kiss you like you were the only oxygen in the room? Did he kiss you like he kisses his grandmother? Did he wait until you were ready to move forward to kiss you, or did he move in fast on the first "date"? Did he kiss you romantically or like a porn star? Did he kiss you from your lips to your toes and back up again, or did he kiss you for 2 seconds and then move on to intercourse? What did you think of when he kissed you? How did it make you feel? Did you compare it to the way your husband kisses you? Did he kiss you or did you kiss him? What did he do with his hands, his body, his attitude? Did he take you somewhere romantic or hop in the back of the car? Did you kiss first or have sex first? Did his breath smell bad? Was it boring? Was it life changing? Did it curl your toes? Did it curl his toes?

I seem to remember reading something in the Healing Library where the writer said that being the BS is like having only some of the pieces to a puzzle, and no picture of what it's supposed to look like when it's done. When we're talking to our BS's about the affair (or anything really) it's important to remember two things. First, you have all the pieces and the picture. You know everything that happened, every detail, every emotion, to you it is almost "common knowledge". But when our BS's ask us questions, we have to answer them bearing in mind that they don't know much at all about the affair, and will never, ever, know as much as you do. It's fine to ask for "what level of detail" your BS wants to know, but if they ask for everything, then your response should reflect that.

The second thing we need to do is to put our shame and guilt and defensiveness in the closet, and go into difficult conversations with a calm and honest demeanor, which allows us to have empathy for the other person.

I think what's important for YOU to reflect on is what happened in your own head when has asked you "how" you were kissed. To me, it sounds as if that mountain of shame and guilt came rushing up and got you feeling defensive. Your thoughts turned inward, and were automatically minimized to the most CYA point of view imaginable. You didn't think about what was being asked, and what the person asking it was asking about. Instead, you felt attacked or judged by the memory and the question. At least, that's how it was for me for a long time. Somewhere deep inside, when asked those kinds of questions, my soul just screamed, "Why do we have to talk about this? Why does it matter? Why can't we sweep it under the rug and just pretend it never happened?". And that inner voice, that feeling, was incredibly difficult to shut up.

Look, 12 years is a long time to still be at the point you guys are at. A lot of damage has been done and who knows if it can be undone? But I do know that accepting the pain and learning to love and forgive ourselves nonetheless makes all the difference in the world. It is freeing. When you aren't buried under shame all day you'd be amazed at how clear your head suddenly feels, and most importantly, how those around you begin to react to you. The marriage may or may not survive, but you can still survive, and not only survive, but find something new in yourself that will not only make you stronger, but happier too.

It's like losing a leg. You can either spend your life in a chair being pissed off that you have live life with one leg, or you can learn to walk with one leg and go live life with one less fear to carry around. You never see 60 minutes doing a special on the people who stayed on the couch. We admire people who rise above, and here's a secret that no one tells you... it's not just others that admire us for our resilience. We admire ourselves too. When you admire and love yourself, no one can take that away from you.

What Daddy Dom is referring to about having to do a puzzle, but not having all the pieces is in Joseph's Letter in the Healing Library. Here is the link:

https://survivinginfidelity.com/documents/library/articles/discovery/joseph-letter/

It has to be frustrating as can be for your husband to not have or get the details he wants.

Take care.

He keeps on telling me that he wants the full movie seen, not even puzzle pieces are good enough. Remember this was more than 12 years ago, talking about it we are coming closer to the "anniversary" of D-day being 14 Feb.

I think you would be wise to seek out professional counseling before this goes any further. It's been twelve years, but that doesn't mean that your BS can't be retraumatized by past events. The downside of "full movie scene" imagery is that it makes the past present again. Chances are that the reason you're still talking about this with him twelve years later is that the original trauma was never processed correctly. You could inadvertently compound that injury now.

Consider discussing this with a trauma specialist at this point. One who is experienced with EMDR might be your best bet.