SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

First post here, so please forgive if I am overstepping any bounds.

I am a WH that is currently struggling for R with my BS. D-day(1) was about 10-months ago. A large issue between me and my spouse is that I keep saying that I never had sex with my AP, but she does not believe me.

Me and the AP are co-workers. We used to be part of a large social circle of colleagues/friends that spent a lot of time out of work doing activities (camping/bars/card games/volunteering/etc.) Me and the AP became fast friends and carpooled together to the office. My Wife grew concerned of how close the two of us were. I have a long history of growing overly close with women friends and letting them become an infatuation, where I talk about them an inordinate amount. Usually, it was a crush of convenience that would end pretty much when one moves away or leaves for a new job. But in this case, I defended our friendship and accused my Wife of being jealous of my "best friend". I wanted to keep my friendship, but I also didn't want to anger my Wife, so things went underground.

Me and the AP started using secret chats and meeting up alone for lunch. By this time, it was already an EA. We carved out time to see each other, even just to bitch about work or the news. We flirted and made sexual innuendo both in chat and in person. I told her that I was physically attracted and she reciprocated, so it became a PA. We started with lying together in bed, then shirts came off. We got physical with dry humping, breast stimulation, and hand jobs when we could find the time to be together. This went on for about 5 years. Our most intimate interaction was when we took a shower together.

I had convinced myself that I was in love with the AP. I thought that things wouldn't work out with my BS, but I didn't just leave because I was supporting us financially and I felt like I couldn't walk away. My Wife knew something was up, and she knew that it had to do with my AP. But she didn't have proof and maybe she didn't want to believe that I could really do this. Eventually I got careless and left my email open, when she saw several messages from the AP and the secret was out.

I spent months denying, minimizing, trickle truthing, and outright lying to try to cover myself. All my Wife wanted was for me to tell the truth. She gave me opportunities to confess, and I still held stuff back. Even the physical interactions that I have admitted here, she had to drag it out of me over weeks of fighting. She had warned me that if I continued to lie after D-Day(1), it would wreck any chance we had at R. And then I continued to lie, and she called me out on it. My Wife even called the AP to see if she would admit to what happened between the two of us, and the AP lied too. Said that we had only hugged. So now my Wife thinks that we had sex, but the both of us must have swore to keep it a secret forever.

But it never happened. At the time, I told myself that doing so would be disrespectful to both the BS and the AP. That by not fully giving in to my PA, I was holding onto some shred of personal dignity. That if I really loved the AP, I would wait until I was out of my marriage. That having sex with someone else then coming home to my loving Wife would be too sick, even for me. Admittedly, it was not all my decision. Near the start of the PA, my AP said that she was not going to sleep with me. Our affair got interrupted by COVID and lock-down. It was difficult for us to schedule enough private time together. For whatever reason, our PA didn't cross the line into intercourse, or fellatio, or cunnilingus, or other similar sexual activities.

But I also said to my Wife that the AP and I never kissed on the lips. We did, and it came out eventually.

My Wife does not believe that we didn't have sex, and I can understand why she has a good reason not to.

JudgeK:

Get "Not Just Friends" and read it twice. Get How to Help Your Spouse Heal From Your Affair: A Compact Manual for the Unfaithful

ditto on the reading

Get tested for STDS

Take a Polygraph and have her work with the test administrator on the questions - only a few are allowed -

Give her access to all your communication mediums - email(s), "social" networking sites, don't forget Linkedin

Put a GPS in your car - and/or put something like "Life 360" on your phones and leave it on always.

Consider IC for either/both of you. Avoid "marriage" council - YOU broke marriage vows so it is you that needs to "fix" what you broke - Her Faith and Trust in you.

Buckle up for a long ride.

There are many books on "Boundaries" - might want to check out one or two.

Then so you can get an idea what she is going through - get "Cheating in a Nutshell" - a compendium of cheater stories. See if any of them fit your situation and share with your wife "you understand" her lack of trust.

Some others that may help: The Married Mans Sex Life Primer - which isn't so much about sex but how to relate to wife.

Since you posted without the "Stop-Sign" you will have others posting soon and take all that is posted with a LARGE grain of salt.

There is a forum "I can relate" - Post questions to WS there (I don't think rules allow here) about what worked for them in reconciliation.

Your wife is very likely having "mind movies" of what she thinks you have done.

Write up a timeline - as detailed as you can - of your relationship with this other person - aka your "affair" partner.

Give the written up timeline to your wife. The offer to discuss in detail and go over it as many times as she wants.

For you - I do hope she wants to find herself and figure out how to put the hurt somewhere so she can again be a marriage partner.

You broke the marriage - the horror is you can't fix it by yourself - she has to figure out how to live with what you have brought into the marriage.

How long have you been married? Kids? Family? Who else is already aware of your escapades? Know that exposure is going to negatively affect your wife.

If she still has enough love for you - then I am optimistic you will some day in the future find common ground to continue being married partners.

As is said here - "You have to do THE WORK" - time is your friend on that effort.

Darn - forgot about this:

I spent months denying, minimizing, trickle truthing, and outright lying to try to cover myself. All my Wife wanted was for me to tell the truth. She gave me opportunities to confess, and I still held stuff back. Even the physical interactions that I have admitted here, she had to drag it out of me over weeks of fighting.

this is the famous "Trickle Truth (TT)" along with outright lying - you have this hill to climb also.

Read the Healing Library - lots of good stuff there.

There are stories here - in JFO forum - of how TT eventually put the kibosh on saving the marriage.

If you want - ask and members can PM you with the URLS for the sad stories - reading can help you learn how to move forward and things NOT to do!

[This message edited by Hippo16 at 11:17 AM, Tuesday, December 13th]

I'm a betrayed spouse whose husband lied, denied, minimized for ~5 years after DDay. Then he put me through the torture of trickle-truths and half-truths for additional ~11 months. I am very much triggered by your post, so I will refrain from "lecturing" you, and I will try to provide helpful feedback on the problem you specifically write about – trickle-truths and your wife not believing you now. Before that, allow me to make just a little side comment, as it is very important:

Me and the AP are co-workers.

This sentence should be: Me and the AP were co-workers. I cannot stress enough how important it is that you go 100% no contact with the AP. If you still work together, find another job. If you don’t want to quit your job due to financial reasons, quit your job anyway. If your wife says she understands that you can’t quit your job, and that she’s ok with minimum, only work-related contact, quit your job anyway. If you don’t have work-related contact, that is, if you only work in the same building, maybe not even in the same department or same shift, quit your job anyway. My husband and I have a deal – when I want him to pay extra attention to what I’m saying, when I want him to listen and accept what I say, no ifs, no buts, no questioning of my reasons, I tell him: "This is important". I am telling you now: This is important. No ifs, no buts, 100% no contact with the AP from now on. My husband kept working with the OW for ~5 months after DDay due to financial reasons, and I was ok with only work-related contact. The truth is, that caused some damage that I’m still struggling with and that is probably irreparable.

As for the specific problem you are writing about.

1) The trauma of trickle-truths is real. Every new info is a new DDay and reconciliation restarts. This is not an exaggeration. Sometimes, reconciliation is not set to zero again, it is set to negative value, depending on what the new info means to your wife, what does it say to her about her, you, your marriage, your betrayal. In another thread, I put it like this: "During the days after DDay1, my partner rewrote at least 3-4 years of my life. (…) Every new DDay rewrote my rewritten life + my life after DDay1, including my marriage. I feel my marriage is a sham, as if I said "yes" to a different guy. (…) My version of reality was not reality. In fact, my new versions of reality were not reality, and I don’t even know if my current version of reality is reality (if I even know what is my current version of reality)." Get it? It’s a complete mind-fuck.

This is not just about your trustworthiness now – after all those lies & trickle-truths you don’t have any. In fact, even I don’t believe you. For example, I might think you wrote this post so that you can show it to your wife and say something like: "You see, here I wrote that we did not have sex, and why would I lie to the Internet people". (Yes, there are people who did something like that, so don’t get mad if it doesn’t apply to you.)

This is also about what lies & trickle-truths do to her mind. She may doubt her own ability to recognize lies, to think rationally and logically. Especially if there was a time when she believed in one of your lies, then found another evidence or indication that you are lying, or you told her those were lies. This is important to understand, as it makes it clear that you need to up your game and help her get the full, clear story of what happened. Only when she’ll have a clear narrative, she can begin to process and heal.

2) How can you help her if you want to reconcile? Please note that many infidelity guides recommend certain things which are not applicable to your anymore, since you need to reconcile not just your betrayal, but also the trickle-truths. For example, some guides will point out you don’t need to tell some irrelevant details, as they will only become unnecessary triggers. I am against that view, and now, after all these years I want to know absolutely everything, even if it will be a lifelong trigger. As I need to see that my partner is now completely open. That is more important to me than creating some triggers. Ask your wife what she needs from you regarding that.

a) Make a deal with yourself – from now on, you will tell only raw, brutal, unfiltered truth, no matter what. Even if it means she will divorce you. Even if it means you will hurt her. Take a risk. No more lies, no more hiding, no more minimizing, no more delaying to tell her anything. Let go of whatever was preventing you from being 100% honest. If you need help with that, there are people here who can help you. Get rid of the narrative "she will never find out" – that is a dangerous thought to have.

b) If there are still things she doesn’t know about, make a plan with her that you will tell her everything during the next X days (depending on how many hidden things there are).

c) Write a timeline of the betrayal – what happened when and where. Include details. Then go through it with you wife and talk about it, about specific points in your timeline. Tell her everything you remember, not just things you find important. As someone who is recovering from trickle-truths, I can tell you for me everything is important, as this is not just about getting the factual things of the betrayal, but also about determining whether my partner is completely open now. For example, if you remember which shower gel you used while showering with the AP, tell her. Yes, it’s trivial, yes, it will become a trigger, but if you tell her that, it sends a message that you are now open with all information. Do not make it just factual – include thoughts and feelings you had at that time.

You may think she now knows everything, but I guarantee you there’s a mess in her head. A written timeline and the opportunity to discuss specific points on that timeline, one by one, will help her create a narrative she can work with.

d) Volunteer information! Do not wait for her to ask questions. You just remembered something you didn’t tell her before? Note it down and tell her at the earliest opportunity. I’d recommend that you schedule time during the week when you will talk about your betrayal, for as long as it takes.

e) Back up your claims – give her access to ALL written conversations you had with the AP – chats on all platforms you used, private e-mails, work e-mails, letters, whatever you have. If you deleted stuff, do your best to retrieve it. This also goes for any conversations you had with other co-workers and friends. I learned some things from group and individual chats with other people! It also helped with the timeline and to verify some things he said. Every little bit helps.

f) After that, when she will have the full story and clear narrative, take a polygraph test.

g) If there are any secrets about you not related to the betrayal, or something from your past that you have never told your wife, for whatever reason, tell her now. My husband shared some high school stories, some stories about ex-girlfriends, and similar stuff – even though those are not relevant for us at all, the fact he shared them helped a lot in my evaluation of his openness now.

This is already a long post, and I’m sure I forgot something, but I hope it helps at least a little bit. Good luck!

This sentence should be: Me and the AP were co-workers. I cannot stress enough how important it is that you go 100% no contact with the AP. If you still work together, find another job. If you don’t want to quit your job due to financial reasons, quit your job anyway. If your wife says she understands that you can’t quit your job, and that she’s ok with minimum, only work-related contact, quit your job anyway. If you don’t have work-related contact, that is, if you only work in the same building, maybe not even in the same department or same shift, quit your job anyway. My husband and I have a deal – when I want him to pay extra attention to what I’m saying, when I want him to listen and accept what I say, no ifs, no buts, no questioning of my reasons, I tell him: "This is important". I am telling you now: This is important. No ifs, no buts, 100% no contact with the AP from now on. My husband kept working with the OW for ~5 months after DDay due to financial reasons, and I was ok with only work-related contact. The truth is, that caused some damage that I’m still struggling with and that is probably irreparable.

^^^Bingo. You should not be anywhere near AP or have any communication with her.

My WH was a co-worker of AP. Fortunately for me, she lived 3,000 miles across the country.

He dumped her on D-Day.

He did not communicate with her directly on business-related issues during the months he was searching for a new job.

He found another job after a successful career with the same company. Actually a better paying job.

He stopped socializing on the job, including his new position at the new company (I traveled with him after D-Day, and the boundaries crossed that I witnessed disgusted me).

He never, ever again met with a woman one-on-one at work.

He stopped having discussions with female co-workers, kept conversations cordial and professional.

He gave me access to his work emails, voicemails, social media, linked in. He put a tracker on his phone voluntarily.

He gave up the sport he was involved in since a young child, 37 years of dedicated training, his passion for almost four decades.

Are you willing to do whatever it takes to earn your wife's trust back?

This went on for about 5 years. Honestly, I can understand why your wife doesn't believe you. Too many of us here were told it was just hugging, mine (and his AP) said they just kissed ) while I'm sitting here with emails that proved otherwise. Offer to take a polygraph with a reputable polygrapher. The results may or may not put your wife's questions to bed. Understand, you had a physical affair with your AP once you touched her.

Gently, you've got poor boundaries which is so disrespectful to your wife. What are you doing to fix yourself when it comes to relationships with other women?

Are you and your wife in individual counseling? Your wife to help navigate this nightmare. You to figure out why you seem to need validation from other women and why you felt it was acceptable to cheat.

Good luck.

I wanted to keep my friendship, but I also didn't want to anger my Wife

My Wife does not believe that we didn't have sex, and I can understand why

it became a PA. We started with lying together in bed, then shirts came off. We got physical with dry humping, breast stimulation, and hand jobs

No stop sign. BS here.

As I understand it, you still want to keep your friend, who knows everything about your wife and home and social life, who lied to your wife and you want your wife to believe you never had sex with your friend of whom she is jealous.

if I really loved the AP, I would wait until I was out of my marriage.

Yes, you accomplished this.

I didn't just leave because I was supporting us financially and I felt like I couldn't walk away.

You would not be merely walking away. You would owe your wife some kind of support and it would be nice if you left your wife the house for her trouble.

I don't know why you won't leave your wife for the friend. You obviously don't respect her, like her, talk to her, don't want to socialize and spend time with her, so why not let her go and find a guy who will do those things with her?

Wait, WHAT? You actually believe that what you have described between "me and the affair partner" constitutes never having sex??!! Wow…that is the epitome of denial and minimization. Not having vaginal, anal, or oral sex with her in no way changes the fact that you betrayed and traumatized your wife. You stole her right to truth and reality. You chose to "open your marriage" but chose not to tell your wife. Focus on your lack of integrity and empathy and fix it. You have clearly described a physical and emotional affair.
Why SHOULD she believe you at this point???

The issue is you did have sex and quite honestly, claiming you never had PIV sex, doesnt pass the smell test.
I think it would help if you came to terms with that fact that you are lying to yourself.
If you reread what you wrote, and looked at it in an unbiased way, which you wont be able to do, but if you could, you would see it much differently and more clearly.
5 years of it as well. You had sex with another woman for 5 years....I certainly dont hope you thought anyone here would validate your dishonesty, because no one will.
You need to fix you, or "R" just won't go well.

We never had sex, but she'll never believe me.

We flirted and made sexual innuendo both in chat and in person. I told her that I was physically attracted and she reciprocated, so it became a PA. We started with lying together in bed, then shirts came off. We got physical with dry humping, breast stimulation, and hand jobs when we could find the time to be together. This went on for about 5 years. Our most intimate interaction was when we took a shower together.

No stop sign.

I guess you need to ask yourself is if your wife had a 5-year relationship with some man outside your marriage, intimately shared with him on an emotional level, and then basically did everything physically with this man, including letting him diddle her, and she was all over his junk + taking showers with him, and he knows her naked body head to toe.... would "But we didn't have sex" (meaning intercourse) really matter to you?

I mean, it kind of would matter probably, but again not really. After all of that other stuff it really wouldn't mean anything overall.

And from the title of your thread, it appears that you still think it means something that you "never had sex".

Cheaters do this all of the time. They look for a technicality to make whatever they did do acceptable in their mind.

None of it is acceptable JudgeK. You had a full emotional and physical relationship with this woman. I know you gave your reasons, but I don't even really understand why you didn't have sex with her.

Speaking of, you found the time and place to dry-hump, shower together, unclothe yourselves to masturbate, and you never had sex?

Would you believe that story if your wife told it to you? Really?

I think she will pretty much never believe you. She shouldn't believe you. It beggars credulity.

***

In any case, you went so far that you should not be looking for some line that you didn't cross in order to temper the betrayal. Why even bring it up? Stop minimizing. You crossed hundreds of lines.

I wrote this in another thread: "I only did X" is not something any cheater should say to the person they betrayed. It's a shortcut to an irate betrayed spouse.

The only thing I can think you should be doing is be in full "I'm sorry" mode, full what can you do to help her mode, and full figure out why you would ever think having a second relationship where you did everything possible except have sex (Veeeeeery hard to believe), betraying the person who should be closest to you in the world is something you would do. For 5 years.

After that, the ball is in her court.

JudgeK,

Wayward here. Wow! Lots to unpack here. Here goes.

I'll start with a plea to you. There have been several posts from BS's please read them, please digest everything they have said. The VAST MAJORITY (and on this thread all) of the BS's who post on the Wayward forum are doing so to benefit you. They don't know you and therefore have nothing to gain from hurting your feelings. They have been on the other side of the trauma we have inflicted on our BS's. They have lived through TT, lies, minimisations etc and know the damage it has done to them. If nothing else use their obvious trauma to help you build empathy for your wife. Remember they're not out to get you, they have nothing to gain from doing so. They are posting on here to help US and to guide us in the right direction. The same applies to posts from fellow waywards. Again please see that we've been there (or are still there) and speak from experience. You will get what is lovingly referred to as a 2x4 from people. They hurt but really are the painful truth we need to hear. A lot of Waywads like us, read these posts and are never heard from again. This is a shame, if you are truly looking to improve yourself then take note of what is being said. Everything I type below is not an attack, it may come over as harsh but it is not intended to offend.

I would like you to do something. Re-read your post, see if you can spot any minimisations, justifications or lies. Then read all of the posts above, twice...Maybe three times. Then read you post again and do the same things. Read How to help your spouse heal from your affair and Cheating in a nutshell. Then read your post again. You should start to see things that to our wayward minds were not obvious previously. I would pay particular attention to Hannah47 below, this post could have been written by my BS (For a moment I thought it was). Read and reread, it makes sense.

So, to my points

-

Me and the AP are co-workers.

This cannot continue. I worked in the same office as one of my AP's for SIX MONTHS before I got another job. I talked to her most days and saw her in the office. I, of course, told myself and my BS that any interaction was strictly professional. Hey, The text messages and phone call had stopped, so I was not longer in the affair right? I was no longer sending flirtatious e-mails and I could prove this, so I was no longer in the affair right? No, complete and utter bullshit. There was contact, there was contact on a personal level, hey even just being able to see one another was a complete breach of no contact. GET A NEW JOB, yesterday. If you want to save your marriage, get away from AP

- You acknowledge the fact that it was a physical affair. You tell us that you did everything but oral and vaginal sex. You do need to think about what constitutes sex. Also, do you know what your BS sees as "sex"? Part of the activity above should include self reflection. That's a given, but also you need to see the affair from your wifes eyes (hey, also the eyes of a lot of posters on here). My IC told me to believe my wifes reality. Your wife does not believe you, why should she? She is thinking that so much else happened, how could it have stopped before intercourse? I don't know what happened in your affair. Only you and your AP know what really happened.

- People are telling you to switch the narrative around. If you were confronted with the narrative above from your wife, would you believe it? Maybe think of it from a total outsiders perspective. Imagine that post was made by me, what would you be saying to yourself? What would you say to me?

- You and I are both guilty of TT. We have broken our marriage through infidelity and then stomped and shattered those broken pieces by minimising and trickle truthing. Now nothing we say will be believed. I could call on my wife now and tell her it is dark outside and she will probably have to check to see if I'm lying (a silly example, but you get my drift). EVERYTHING we say will be challenged and will be for years, it is possible we will never be trusted again. You need to accept this and not be the one getting frustrated or annoyed when you're not believed. Now, this is not easy. It may be a deal breaker for you and certainly could be for BS.

- Read https://www.survivinginfidelity.com/topics/324250/things-that-every-ws-needs-to-know/
if you have not already...(It is pinned to the top of this forum). Then (as hinted above) read it again and again. Remind yourself EVERY morning that it is you who has put your marriage in this position. It is you and only you who can save anything from it.

- Hippo16 makes some fantastic points. I'll not repeat them (I accept I have already though). These (and Hannahs points) should be pinned to your notice board or as wallpaper on you PC screen.

- 100% no fucking about with minimisations or technicalities GO NO CONTACT. Again, as I and others have said, this cannot happen while you still work in the same company.

- Be 100% honest in everything. Your with is suffering from a huge traumatic experience. Even the smallest lie will push you back. You could do 10 wonderful things for her and do everything right for weeks on end. Then lie about having a beer after work.......BANG. Imagine your life is a snakes and ladders board (aka Chutes and ladders). You need to ensure you do not offer up any reason for BS to slide backwards. Protect against doing this. Then when thigs do slide backwards be prepared to start the work again.

- You cannot "control the outcome". This took me years to understand. NOTHING you can do can make you wife stay in the marriage. You could be 100% truthful, 100% no contact, 100% in the marriage, be a better man, never chat again etc and your marriage may still end in divorce. Accept this and live with it. This does not mean do not do the work, do not become a better person. You need to do this to have any chance of R, but it will not guarantee that the marriage will be save. Don't try and do things to manipulate your wife into staying with you, do not book a romantic weekend away if your intentions are to try and rug sweep or to make her stop asking questions. Do everything in good faith.

- "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" Remember this? It made it over here to the UK.

Wow…that is the epitome of denial and minimization.

as said above by not sure yet. Think on this....

- There is some fantastic support available on this site and in the books suggested. Hopefully some of the more articulate and experienced waywards will post soon. Everyone will give you advice or support. You will not get excuses or validation for what you've done. You will get support and sometimes a pat on the back for doing something to help yourself, but you will not get people on here who validate infidelity and will tell you "Yeah, you only did X and not Y so what is your BS complaining about?" or "Just tell BS XXXXXX and XXXXXX and she'll accept this and move on". If you're hoping for this (I was) It's not going to happen.

I have a question, what do you want from this forum? Please ask questions. Waywards are OK to ask questions on this forum. Please do, if you only want waywards to respond, please do not delete the stop sign. I and others have posted in our early days thinking I could cope with a BS posting on my thread. Some of us survived to tell the tail. Seriously though, it can be hard to read some of the responses, especially those calling you out for being full of shit. If you're still in a massively wayward mindset then you're going to struggle with dealing with these.

Again, READ ALL THE REPLIES and take them for what they are...support and offers of advise.

You can reach out to me via PM if that will help. I'm on here most days.

So you’re telling us that you had five years of hand jobs, etc. and never actually put your penis in her?

Why not?

[This message edited by 3yrsout at 8:29 PM, Tuesday, December 13th]

3yrs

So you’re telling us that you had five years of hand jobs, etc. and never actually put your penis in her?

Why not?

Because only then would it be cheating! Ridiculous to you, me, and probably everyone reading this thread besides Judge K, but that’s probably his rationale.

Judge, you need to pull your head out of your backside and do it quickly for the sake of your BS. Your story is not at all believable, but even if it’s true that you never had PIV sex with your AP it doesn’t matter as I’m reasonably certain your wedding vows didn’t provide exceptions for naked hotel meet ups and handjobs. Just stop. Seriously.

If you are an actual judge you are probably a reasonably smart person who presides over many conflicts in a day. If a defendant sat before you, with a similar history of lying as you do, would you be inclined to believe anything else they said? Come on, dude.

Hello, Judge. Welcome to SI from another veteran minimizer and trickle-truther.

I'm curious what happened that made you come clean. You had your story lined up with the AP, and both of you stuck to it. Why did you eventually decide to admit something that couldn't be proved? And when you did, why did you only give part of the remaining truth?

No sex for five years is not very believable to me, so 1,000 times more so for your BW.

Take a poly and prove it to her. I certainly don’t buy it.

Just a reminder when posting to be respectful and constructive when giving advice.

No stop sign.

Anything is possible I suppose but I can't imagine you'd find too many people that would believe that account. The betrayed spouse even less so I would imagine. Perhaps a polygraph.

Hey JudgeK. I affirm your decision to post here. Youve already received tremendous input as to needed action steps from Hippo and others. Please take heed and follow through.

Beyond the actual long term affair, the massive issue you have right now is zero credibility, making this statement virtually moot in your BWs mind.

For whatever reason, our PA didn't cross the line into intercourse, or fellatio, or cunnilingus, or other similar sexual activities.

But I also said to my Wife that the AP and I never kissed on the lips. We did, and it came out eventually.

My Wife does not believe that we didn't have sex, and I can understand why she has a good reason not to.

At this point, just tell her that in spite of the actions you are willing to take as to polygraph(s), tracking, etc., that you know you have no basis in truth, that the trust bank is now bankrupt, and that you dont expect her to believe you and that you wouldnt either if you were in her shoes. Full stop. IMO, the quote above isnt worth the breath it takes to mouth the words. Actions only from here on out.

That said, IF she gives you a chance to prove you are R worthy, it will be the most radical overhaul of your deeply entrenched behaviors and root thinking that youve ever attempted in your life. It will also be a marathon. The only way back will be through consistency over a long period of time coupled with a level of transparency, accountability, and integrity that youve never known. You will need to work with a behavioral therapist on a regular basis in order to accomplish this IMO.

Take some time to think it through. Are you really up for this? Have you hit bottom?

Two things will change your life, inspiration or desperation. Being inspired clearly did not take. How desperate are you now to make the complete 180 that will be necessary to turn this around? Only you know.

Your day of reckoning is here and it is pivotal. You neednt answer, but please do ponder this thoroughly.

I do hope you take up the challenge regardless of whether your marriage survives. In short, you can, if you are willing to pay the price.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 4:49 PM, Thursday, December 15th]

The original post has, to my palette, the taste of someone trying to recruit believers so the OP can show his betrayed wife and say, "see! THEY believe me, you should, too."

[This message edited by SI Staff at 2:28 PM, Thursday, December 15th]

I think possibly one of the hardest thing to do is to post your story on SI. It’s hard irrespective if you are a betrayed spouse or a wayward spouse, but it’s probably double hard to come here knowing you are in the wrong and sharing your story. I appreciate the courage needed to do this and am answering the original poster with the respect his single post (to-date) deserves. We should keep that in mind before needlessly whacking posters over their head or breaking guidelines by calling them out. We can be firm – but there is no need to be disrespectful.

Friend – The reason your wife doesn’t believe the "we had no sex" statement is because you two did have sex.
You have admitted to it yourself – the dry-humping, the hand-jobs and so on. It’s sex, and calling it anything else is minimizing. The real question your wife has is what sexual acts were preformed, rather than if there was any sex. If you shared with her what you shared with us, you have already confessed to having sex.

For a minute imagine you are confronting your 14-year-old daughter. If she told you that spending time with Brad was fine and innocent because they didn’t have sex – but they did mutually masturbate, rub body-parts and shower together – would you be all OK with that? Would you still insist your daughter was not being sexually active?

Or if she told you she didn’t smoke because she never inhaled, but only puffed at the butt. Be fine with that? Or that she only snorted heroin but since she didn’t shoot up then it really wasn’t a problem…

Your wife is dealing with something comparable. She’s being told nothing happened but also being told what happened and that includes acts that she (and most normal people) views as sexual. Basically "We did A, B, and C that are all sexual acts, but we didn’t have sex". It doesn’t work because it doesn’t make sense.
Let’s assume you are being truthful. After all – you don’t really have much to gain by lying to strangers on the internet. If the truth is that you and your AP never had penis-in-vagina "sex" then don’t hid behind "we never had sex". You HAD sex – only not THAT kind.

Then there is the probability of you and your AP having limited your sexual activities… For two grown-ups for such a long time it’s not believable. It could be true, but your wife’s reluctance to believe it is understandable.

You have gotten some good advice above. What I want to emphasize is that you need to completely let go of any minimization or justification of why you decided to have your affair and what happened during the affair. That any truth she needs is offered. Completely – no matter how hard or difficult.
You then ask her what she needs to believe you. What can you do to convince her. Offer hypnosis, a poly… whatever. Most importantly – be totally 100% truthful. Acknowledge that there was sexual gratification – that there WAS SEX. Then work on defining what sex-acts actually did take place. Most importantly – recognize her pain. Recognize that there was sex, there was betrayal and there was infidelity. Don’t try in any way to blame her, the marriage, OW or work or whatever. It’s totally yours. Accept your blame, carry your accountability and work at amends.

Finally – the best way to regain trust is by being trustful.
You can’t demand trust, but you can regain it. You do that by being truthful and open in each and every detail in your life. No secrets, no lies. Total truth. If she asks you where you are going you tell her, and you go there. If she asks if you met OW at work (and I assume you still work together) you tell her the truth, and what the interaction was. If your wife doesn’t want you to work with her anymore you tell your wife what your plans are to meet her requirements and you follow them through. If you are totally 100% honest for some time (like 2-3 years!)

Finally finally – regarding working together. It’s not going to help your marriage at all. Bulcy is spot-on regarding that issue.

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I am a mad hatter and have both experiences, sadly.
We justify our deeds in ways we want to believe that we are right and not "as bad".
My WH promised vehemently that he didn’t have sex and after many many days of TT admitted they did oral. A cheater believes that what they did is ok and is not bad at all. For him since he didn’t do PIV he was not sexually with this person.
Same on my end, I believed that I only made out/heavy petted but always with clothes and NO mutual mast, sex of any kind or other bed intimacy was every involved - so I was not sinning as much.
We believe what we want to believe.