SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Just to broach the subject

I see lots or most folks want to stay (afraid of change?) with their cheating spouse.
and we paste over their cheating by saying they and AP "slept together" WTF?

I'm not an expert on human physiology but as best I know, not to many folks have the ability to perform coitus while sleeping.
I don't "get" the why people can't speak the obvious. Something wifey said and I nailed her that instant.

Bullshix with a capital T

So why the "euphemism" ????!!! OK? I know the definition but why skirt the reality of what they did? I'm baffled.

OK, side note - I am a "techie" type person and 99% of the crap I deal with is not human. FWIW

I am annoyed at threads where the BS "accepts" the WS has offered them all kinds of critters via their activities (some lifetime) and seem (?) to accept that is part/parcel to staying with the morally crippled partner.

side note: My "WS" is adamant she didn't do the deed - well trading spit is pretty close - (gag)

side note # 2: been a long time but kissing is no longer something I enjoy (not like when I was a TEENAGER!!!) -

What exactly are you mad about Hippo? Sleeping together is a less visceral way to say they had sex, and we all know that. Every relationship is different. There is no shortage of people who leave their spouse over porn, only fans, or even "just" an online affair. I use just only to say that no physical contact happened but for many it violates every boundary they have. Meanwhile there are others who stay and attempt R after multiple affairs with numerous people. So what?

We all have our own reasons for ending or staying and they have no effect on your relationship. Your WW made out someone else and it’s deal breaker, by all means divorce and move on. It is absolutely warranted and no one here would hold that against you. You suspect more happened, there was opportunity for it to happen, then it’s most likely more happened.

Do what is best for you. All of us BS are struggling in our own way, but we all have our own individual journey that only we can solve. This community is only a place for perspective and support. The ultimate decision is ours and ours alone.

I think some people use slept together instead of sex anyway. Maybe because they were brought up not to talk about sex or they are uncomfortable talking about sex.

So I’m not sure it’s just an affair issue. I guess it depends if the person usually says sex but is now using slept together to make it sound more palatable.

I agree with Hell a non sex based affair may be seen as ‘only’ online or ‘only’ emotional but it still destroys marriages. Even an online affair with a scammer throws the marriage into disarray. I think my husband may have been tricked by a scammer but it’s changed my marriage and may still end up a deal breaker for me. Only time will tell.

I sort of agree with Hippo.

By that I mean, the using of certain words to "gloss over" and "protect" the offending party.

For instance, when I started reading infidelity forums the word that "got my goat" was the term "Wayward". Huh???!!! Did the person writing mean that the offending party was outside and a gust of wind came along and blew the map out of their hand, which in turn confused them and caused them to go somewhere they did not mean to go?

The Oxford dictionary defines Wayward as "difficult to control or predict because of unusual or perverse behavior". Similar words are "willful", "head-strong", "stubborn", "uncooperative", etc.

We call the offended party the BS, "Betrayed Spouse", because they were Betrayed... right?

Why do we tone down the description of the person inflicting the damage? Why not call them the CS, "Cheating Spouse"? or, AS, the "Adulterer Spouse"?

There used to be a poster here who used what I considered a very good, descriptive handle as their pen name... "LifeDestroyer"... because that is what adultery seems to do in a large number of instances. In my many years on this planet earth I have seen many, many lives and homes destroyed by "sleeping together"... AKA, sex outside of the relationship.

So, to say they slept together instead of having sex seems to tone down what actually occurred.

Just my opinion. As they say... Your Mileage May Vary.

[This message edited by lrpprl at 12:53 PM, Thursday, February 15th]

Why should I stay?

I am confused, because I don’t think anyone says you "should" do anything. We are just a.bunch of people who share our experiences.

As far as wayward versus cheater or life destroyer, I think the site has a tone that tries to invite people who cheated to post. It’s a symbiosis that is a hard balance to strike, but the founders of this site felt it was important to them they both have a voices on the site presumably because they felt it was a place for both sides of the coin to share and heal.

I remember "lifedestroyer" and even "iamtrash", the latter of which one day found it in herself to change her handle because she learned her shame wasn’t serving her or her husband.

Healing for the ws means learning self compassion, to love themselves, to conduct their lives in a way that they are accountable for their actions, thoughts, and feelings. They in turn may become a safer partner for their bs and maybe not reoffend. Wayward isn’t something this site made up, it’s a word that comes from the therapy community for the same reasons.

The traded insight between the ws and bs has been instrumental for me and a lot of other people here who needed to peek over the fence and understand things their spouse may not yet understand about themselves. It’s hard enough to get a ws to stay here without insisting they come and sign in as a life destroyer. We already know on some level that’s what we are or we wouldn’t land here trying to make sense of what we have done.

I don’t think anyone thinks anyone should simply stay. Nor do I think saying sleeping with someone is as common around her as saying sex. I think I see sex or some other euphemism at a much higher rate here than gentler terms that are probably used by people who don’t say sex a lot in their real life.

I think the most important thing is they are here. Picking apart how they say what they say might be easier in a case-by-case basis in which you could encourage a poster that you feel is in denial by saying "sleeping together" might be more helpful?

Maybe I am not understanding the purpose of the post.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:42 PM, Thursday, February 15th]

I lived in Germany for 3 years and was struck by the differences in our language and how we approach "sensititive topics." (Ie, bodily functions that everybody does and everybody knows that everybody does."

I think Americans probably have more euphemisms for sex and toilet habits than the whole rest of the world put together. I think it was the movie Varsity Blues that had a scene with about a 5 minute recitation of all the different adolescent terms for an erection.

In Germany, if someone needs to use the toilet, they say they are going to use the toilet. There aren’t any washrooms or powder rooms or ladies’/men’s rooms.

So I think it’s tied in to this very American desire to pretty things up and leave the unmentionables, well, unmentioned.

I agree though. All of the euphemisms for sex REALLY piss me off when it’s tied to infidelity. Call it what the fuck it is. (Pun intended. )

The greatest thing about humans is that we are all different.

You or anyone else do not have to try to make anything work or stay married to someone that betrayed you. However, if others decide to do that, they can. I hate any threads here or posters who say "you need to leave, you should leave, you are naïve," and so on because whether anyone here wants to admit it, we are all sharing only ONE SIDE of the story. All of our lives are much more complicated and intertwined within our social environment that it is never easy to make a decision about changing your entire life or your children's lives.

No one should tell you to do anything you are not comfortable doing and that includes reconciling or divorcing. We are all hurt and understand that pain of betrayal, but we are still all unique with our own needs and desires.

In my opinion, if someone wants to make it work with their partner who cheated 100 times that is their choice and we should respect that and support that choice, not tell them they are fighting a lost cause because your partner is not their partner and no two people are alike.

Regarding the sex and euphemisms, it is how most(not all!) of our society speaks. If you want to say they had sex or fucked or whatever then go ahead. But you can't apply your language standards to that of others, this is a world wide community and a culture mix. There are so many aspects to a person that may inhibit them from using certain words publicly.

You are very angry and that is okay. But to come at BS's that want to reconcile seems misplaced, no one is putting that on you. You make your own decisions at the end of the day and they are right for you but not everyone.

With each passing year I see lying and deception or deceptive terminology become more of a feature of our world. We should be trying to strive to be honest. A lot less shitty behaviour would thrive if people didn't enable others for lying whenever it is convenient or more comfortable to do so.

That said, I agree with Greto, you are clearly very angry (as a BS and at yourself is my guess) and you're maybe lashing out at other BS's a bit as a proxy for that anger.

Why not just tell us what's going on instead?

HFSSC --- A little thread jack here.

In the 1950s I was naive, wet behind the ears, raised on a farm with very limited world experience, and 17 years old. I was in Germany thanks to the Army. I was in the Frankfurt airport and went to the "washroom" to urinate. Urinated in a long trough. When I finished urinating I looked down at the end of the trough and there was a mature woman standing there with a stack of towels draped over her arm watching me urinate. I panicked and thought what universe was I in? I ran out of there as fast as I could, and did not bother to "wash" my hands in the "washroom".

[This message edited by lrpprl at 5:09 AM, Friday, February 16th]

I didn't gloss over anything. I frequently made my WS cringe by being frank and coarse. Our MC used the term "fucked" too, for full effect.

Everyone's situation is different, like others have said. I didn't stay with my H just because I was fearful of change, though I do admit that that was a factor. I stayed with him because he confessed, owned his shit, was remorseful, worked friggin' HARD to make amends (and still does), made real change, and has never betrayed me again. I'm sorry that your experience was different.

I didn't gloss over anything. I frequently made my WS cringe by being frank and coarse.

Me too. I needed him to feel my pain and the absolute devastation he caused. I'm nice about it which I think bothers him more. .

I agree on terminology. Especially in healing, I think it's important to be explicit. For many years, I wrote 'my W's A', not 'the A', because I wanted to make sure that I dealt with the real facts without pretense.

Sleeping together is nice. Sex is nice. They're related but not shackled to each other. We can do either without doing both together sequentially. I, too, hate to use 'sleep together' as euphemism for 'have sex'.

*****

I don't see a 'should' WRT staying together after being betrayed, especially because there are 'shoulds' that advocate both staying and going. so someone is going to be displeased no matter whether one stays or goes.

For me, it's 'want' vs 'don't want.' 'Should' doesn't lead to healing. 'Want' and 'don't want' does, IMO.

*****

I don't use 'adultery' because in some jurisdictions, an A between 2 women is not considered 'adultery'. I never found a clear statement in Illinois law, but that's because I'm not a lawyer; the legalese is too thick in relevant documents. Where it is adultery, that's usually a pretty recent decision. Wherever the Bible came from, it's not considered explicitly. It's not adultery in Jewish law, according to the Orthodox rabbi I consulted.

IOW, using 'adulterer' for 'Wayward' is too limiting, IMO.

Thanks for comments everyone

Angry? Nah - annoyed with euphemisms? - Ya - you bet!

Poser: If you perform coitus in the back seat of a car - is that also "sleeping together" ???
Is there a different meaning or way of saying no PIV but did perform oral mutually?

I would say using "sleeping together" is just a way of people diminishing the activity so as to work to convince the BS
"It's not what you think" or "It was only sex" - Really?

HFSSC - USA folks who have never been outside the states are so limited in their thinking. Some of the stuff one gets to see while touring the world on a big gray yacht with free (!) room and board enables one to experience other cultures which, at first, is a bit shocking to "USA" minds. Germans as you note are much more plain speaking and, to them, understanding "American-English" with all of our euphemisms and oxymorons is a HUGE challenge.

Being in Uniform (required) while on shore leave tells everyone you are an American - and that affects how people react to you - very often in a negative way. Using euphemisms to communicate - OK in USA but not so much, if at all, when in a foreign country.

"Sleeping together" is just one that is a pet peeve of mine. When I read that - mind wonders what DID they do to/with each other? Bondage or full blown BDSM? Mutual masturbation? All kinds of "toys?" The use of euphemism seems to be, intentionally or not, to try and diminish the acts significance and effect on the BS.

Speaking using euphemisms, In my mind, comes close to lying - and that does anger me.

So then this was in response to a specific post? I miss what goes on in "just found out" I don’t read there because I am not allowed to post there. When I have read over there I don’t like how the new bs is sometimes treated so I stay out for my own sanity.

I don’t guess I mind what someone wants to call it. But I bet if you started a count most people on here say sex, physical affair, and I would argue I see fucked way more than "sleeping together" but if this is just found out, it’s hard for a lot of bs to take everything in at once.

I don’t know I go long spaces without getting on anymore, but I just don’t see this rampantly unless of course it’s in one of the boards I don’t read in. (Just trying to understand because honestly I don’t view you as an angry poster)

Reasons to stay:

- a belief in a better world with second chances even without a faith perspective.

- a long shared history that is on the balance one of love and respect.

- because you are a person of faith and you understand God hates divorce.

- practical considerations such as not wanting to lose the shirt off your back in addition to the betrayal trauma.

- stubborness.

- to try to hold a family together.

I'm sure folks on here could add a lot of reasons.

because you are a person of faith and you understand God hates divorce.

My understanding is that infidelity in many faiths is considered the one reason you can divorce.

CAN divorce seems right. Remarriage is another thing.

An exception for hard hearts isn't the same as approval. I suspect a lot of Christians have made a terrible mistake when it comes to divorce. (Non-Christians too but being unbelievers is a bigger problem anyway).

The point being that values we lead our lives by can put us in difficult positions and "just leave" is not a reaction that takes the nuances of life into account.

Personally I think if we want to be reactionary about infidelity we should start by bringing social sanctions back to people with low character. Not just cheaters but liars and manipulators in general. Incentives matter, we get more of what we tolerate (or worse, celebrate!)

Divorce is always an option. It's actually a great option because it allows you to get away from the abuse and live a better life approved by God or whatever it is you believe in.

If you don't like the term "slept together" because you feel like the use of euphemistic language minimizes what actually happened, then you're absolutely free to use different terminology. I know I certainly made a point to use more loaded, jarring, graphic language in my early days A-discussions with my husband because I was angry with him and wanted to make a point. As my rage has cooled, I'm okay using technical language. My husband was never someone who tried to minimize his actions in the A though, so perhaps that's why this doesn't continue to stick out for me. I would certainly never discourage a BS from insisting upon using technical language in their own discussions with their spouse. The phraseology exists in the wider culture far beyond SI however, so while I don't doubt there are some waywards who use the term in order to avoid the harsh reality of the situation, I (myself) don't associate the phrase in a general way with the lying/making excuse. If it's something your own WS does/did I imagine that might colour your perception differently.

Why do we tone down the description of the person inflicting the damage? Why not call them the CS, "Cheating Spouse"? or, AS, the "Adulterer Spouse"?

Again, you can call your spouse whatever you like and I know certain members take issue with the term Wayward and refuse to use it, without any pushback from anyone. I do think it's important to remember that one of the unique things about this site is that it is supposed to be for both BS and WS. I know I personally learned a lot from reading posts made by Waywards and judging by the activity in the BS questions for WS, I believe other have too. Even with the protections we have in place here (stop signs, protected forums, etc), I imagine it's pretty scary to post here as a Wayward (and this would be worse if they viewed the site as a place where they had to wear a scarlet letter for all time). Most Waywards don't find themselves here during the best, most proud moments of their life (another massive euphemism! ). Most have a history of avoidance and after discovery are in a state of personal turmoil/chaos with a BS at home that is rapidly spiraling between anger and devastation. It's no surprise to me that so many post (once) and ghost. I think we are more likely to reach a person and help them see how their thinking is flawed if we speak to them respectfully. That might be (understandably) frustrating to some people, but I think it is worth remembering that for every foggy Waywards we see here, there is a BS on the other side who will likely benefit if their WS is able to stick around long enough to learn something.

I remember "lifedestroyer" and even "iamtrash"....

Me too, and (without suggesting anything at all negative about either of them as posters), I absolutely cringe even writing their names. First off, choosing a self-derogatory username does not signal that you are actually remorseful. I think we can all agree that words alone mean very little from a fresh wayward. Plenty of waywards show up here and post in the hopes that their BS will see it and will take it as an indicator of penance. Often these posts are full of excessive self-flagellation, "I am scum - the worst human alive, etc etc", that can feel almost performative (and i'm sure in some cases is performative/manipulative). Obviously that, without more, is not helpful for anyone. I imagine for others, that self-flagellation is sincere (vs. an attempt to manipulate). Again, I don't think that kind of excessive brow-beating without more helps anyone. Obviously recognizing that cheating is wrong and harmful and having healthy shame about the decision to cheat is like a rock bottom minimum requirement to attempt R, but in my view, excessive (toxic) shame is almost as counterproductive to R as no shame is. It's entirely self-focused, maladaptive, unproductive, and as HikingOut has pointed out, in many cases, it's one of the things that often contributes to a Wayward's decision to cheat in a the first place. I don't think an unhealthy person can properly reconcile and become a safe person, and I can't imagine becoming a healthy person while identifying as trash.

I am annoyed at threads where the BS "accepts" the WS has offered them all kinds of critters via their activities (some lifetime) and seem (?) to accept that is part/parcel to staying with the morally crippled partner.

I'm not sure I understand this. Critters? Do you mean kids? I don't think anyone should settle for a morally crippled partner, either. But I understand the decision to leave is not easy or straightforward for everyone, and I think everyone deserves support.

I get why "sleeping together" is too off the truth. It conjures up a bedroom with rose petals scattered about. I used to follow a blogger who had sex with her boss in a conference room. They also had work trips so an actual bed was used but in the end he dumped her. To her is was a relationship but to him it was just sex. So why not call it having sex. That covers the entire behaviors because often people say it wasn’t sex because there was no penetration. If you have had your hands and mouth on another person’s body behind your spouses back you are having some sort of sexual experience. So I get it. My husband did not sleep with anyone. He had things with other women while traveling. It was sex.

[This message edited by Cooley2here at 8:49 PM, Thursday, February 15th]