SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

ETA: also, and correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t one of the final pieces that woke you up to realize that you couldn’t R was that you mocked your EX asking for to give you a BJ in a store similar as what happened with her Ap which was almost 5 years previous? Reading your story, none of it is about your EW falling in love or anything, it’s all about all of the sex acts, especially the things she did for AP she didn’t do for you.

The incident in the store, came a year in. It was the impetus of me stopping the verbal abuse which I admit had become almost a sport to try to hurt her as much as she hurt me. Though I wasn’t perfect, the following 4 years I stayed after that I wasn’t abusive, but treated her more like a roommate with really no emotional availability on my part. You are correct that for me the sex acts that she did with him was something I could never get past. In the end as much as the sex she had did compelled me to give up, the feelings of me treating her so poorly was also the reason I left. I saw her as tainted and I knew I always would. If I couldn’t get over that and see her as my wife instead of who she was for those weeks, why was I still there. Even though she doesn’t look at it the way I did, I felt the most compassionate thing to do was to leave as I would never have been able to get out of the cycle of being cold and uncaring.

The reason the OP strikes a chord with me is I see in her the desperation of someone who wants the love to return, but must also face the consequence that after this much time it might never happen. If I had asked my EXWW to tar and feather herself and wear a scarlet A she would have done it. But even if she did, it would not have made a difference. There are many BS here that have gotten over cheating even worse than what I went through, but many others who like me are just not capable of forgiveness. And if you add in the population of BS who just walk away and don’t look for help on forums such as this that number is probably much higher. Just my opinion, but SI is more populated with those who want to forgive than you see in the general population. Those here are looking for a way to forgive. That’s a big driver as to why they are here. Even if it doesn’t work out.

I do agree with sentiment that for men the sex becomes the red line. I think I could have forgiven an EA, even if it involved sexting or even nudes. But to think about the fluids that passed between them sickened me. I have also said that I think I could have forgiven a one time sex act. But when the WS goes back the second time it is no longer a stupid mistake, but a rejection of the BS.

The OP here did herself no favors by wanting to divorce, for whatever reason. It is a rejection of the BS and add having sex with their AP multiplies the rejection 10 fold.

I too wanted no part of MC which I went to a couple of times. Hearing how this could make our marriage stronger infuriated me and I wanted no part of it. I totally understand why her BS would reject this. In retrospect a qualified therapist could have helped, but I wasn’t in a frame of mind to listen and like her BS felt it’s not my mess to clean up.

I hope things work out, but I’m not convinced it will. Actions have consequences and hers for sleeping with another man may be the loss of a normal loving relationship. It just might be something she has to come to terms with.

If I had asked my EXWW to tar and feather herself and wear a scarlet A she would have done it. But even if she did, it would not have made a difference.

I feel I should point out to the op that this is exactly the opposite of what a healed ws should do.

As much as it’s counterintuitive, the arrival of healing is not just understanding what you did to your spouse. I mean it’s common around here for a ws really working to be able to start to process that at the end of year one, with a deepening understanding and full picture by the end of year two. The harder work in my opinion is trying to get self respect, compassion, and love after all the destruction you did- to everyone involved including yourself.

The reason you won’t heal in this environment is you are not allowed to have those things.

. But to think about the fluids that passed between them sickened me.

Just so we are clear, I don’t think that is a male only response. In my case, protection was used. In my husbands non was used. This was a big sticking point for me.

Again, I don’t think the ability to forgive or not is gender related, it’s values related. And the nuances of those values.

It’s just unhelpful to label things a male or female response, even if there is antidotal evidence that supports that view. It could even be a bigger majority but never an absolute. For example : Do I think more women cheat for emotional reasons? Sure. But I know there are plenty who do it for more or different sex.

For me, my husbands affair mostly only involved sex, so those details are the ones that exist to hurt me. Most of my affair was conducted from long distance, so more of the details were based on the talking part. The sexual part happened on one business trip, not that it makes it better but there weren’t that many details there to wade through and process.

Okay, enough of that, but it all goes back to this: it’s not harder for him to heal than any other bs. Yes, the details were revealed later, and I am sure that has added a wrench to things, but relying on her to heal him and calling her names is not what a reconciliation looks like at any stage. It’s continuing a pattern of disrespect in which he is not only not working on himself, he isn’t providing an environment that she can heal in either. Reconciliation requires self reflection from both parties.

And waited, you did the absolute best thing for you. Recognizing it was a deal breaker and that you could not give her the life that people should have because she ruined that for you too. That’s completely healthy. What is happening here isn’t.

A lot of men don’t see their wives the same after they cross the physical line, and will never.

This of course stems from the societal notion that good girls don’t. It’s a double edged sword because women raised like that often are frigid when they grow up and get married.

The truth is I agree, women and men do look at sex differently. Just from the standpoint for men it can be seen more as scarcity in opportunity, biologically, and the fact you guys think of it 1000 times a day more than most women.

But what you are describing isn’t a gender thing it’s a values thing. You see women who had too many partners as damaged goods.

My husband and I tired swinging back in our young days before we were married. I do not think for him it was the sex, it was the lying, the betrayal.

I am saying all this because people who think in absolutes- black/white rather than being able to see grey- I think that is a person who has the hardest time. It’s not a bad trait, there is a lot to be said about that. But someone whose values are that a woman can’t have as many sexual partners as a man is going to struggle more. Not all men are bothered by how many sexual partners his wife had before they met and married.

This is a self-confirmation that will hold you separate in a reconciliation.

But you and I agree on one thing- this is what bothers OP’s husband. And thirteen years later tells me he is never going to heal while they are together unless he tries something besides berating his wife and thinking it’s her job to fix him.

There is nothing wrong with knowing you can’t forgive, even if it’s for no other reason than it happened. But for those who are trying for reconciliation, the bs is going to have to challenge some of the beliefs that hold them back. And that’s why I am responding to you. I don’t respond to fight, I respond when I see something ingrained that is not helpful if reconciliation is your goal.

If I had asked my EXWW to tar and feather herself and wear a scarlet A she would have done it. But even if she did, it would not have made a difference.

I feel I should point out to the op that this is exactly the opposite of what a healed ws should do.

I agree with this. Though she never physically tarred herself, she in de facto mentally did. She became almost a stepford wife. She had no confidence in anything. She deferred to me on everything. She couldn’t even tell me what restaurant she wanted to eat at in fear of picking wrong. Prior to the affair she was an equal partner. After she was a junior intern with no power. Part of that was the result of the bashing I gave her, but even when that stopped she never stepped up to try to reclaim her place as a wife.

The goal for any WS or BS should be to become equal partners again. Differing to the BS all the time doesn’t do this.

But to think about the fluids that passed between them sickened me.

Just so we are clear, I don’t think that is a male only response. In my case, protection was used. In my husbands non was used. This was a big sticking point for me.

I’m not sure I totally agree with this. Health wise for you his lack of protection is inexcusable.

But after a good shower all of her fluids are gone, or most of it anyway. For me the thoughts that I kissed her and actually had oral sex only hours after they had exchanged fluids was sickening. She could have brushed or cleaned herself with drano, but some of his swimmers most likely ended up in my mouth still wants to make me throw up. In this way the genders are different

Edit to add she did try to dissuade me on the oral, but it was so intregal to our sex life she was terrified if she tried to hard it would set off alarm bells for me

[This message edited by waitedwaytoolong at 8:49 PM, Thursday, March 14th]

A lot of men care about how many partners women had, and most would not marry someone who has a large one.

How on earth would they know?

Waited, I don’t want to dilute the post that much further but absolutely it mattered. He exposed me to stds for 18 months. He went down on her, unless he washed his face, used disinfectants for mouthwash, then same boat. And it absolutely grossed me out. Every day I came come to him and kissed him first thing, often times she hadn’t been gone an hour.

I will reiterate, I feel like it’s a combo of values, and the details of your own spouses affair.

Most women on this site who have been betrayed have mind movies, feel like their bodies aren’t loved by their wh, worry he liked her more sexually, and all the things the guys go though. I am just trying to get this to be more about the two people involved rather than their gender.

I also realize you knew the fact she would have been tarred and feathered was not the way to deal with it, I know you as a poster enough to realize that. I remember one woman who was a ws who came here and was contemplating getting the A tattoo on her chest.

And I am always cognizant that out of the dozens of women I have counseled through private message, the vast majority of them had verbal, physical abuse by the spouse prior to the cheating and that escalated after the cheating. I am going to say being able to call someone a whore is likely a testament to the entirety of the marriage rather than just post A. He may not have called her a whore but I think likely there was red flags here anyway. Not that it gives the excuse to cheat, more that we are not always dealing with you or hellhath or some of the other Bh’s on this site.

Any time I’m tempted to break my Lenten fast I’m going to read this page of this thread.

Circling back to Hellfire’s question, Ragab, what new revelations were in the timeline that you gave your husband 3 years ago?

Sacred
I’m just in a bad place. It’s deep in A season for me, and rereading everything it’s clearly effecting me in many ways. I have my opinions, but it’s probably best that I realize they are only that and while apply to my life, definitely not a one size fits all, and I should probably just keep them to myself.

Waitedtolong,

I was wrong, my mistake. I do agree with everything you said and how it applies to OPs situation, I was trying to say basically everything you did, you summed it up very well.

Hiking,

I have no rebuttal, you make very solid points, and we can agree to disagree

So when he asked me to give him another chance I did not think twice, it was me that was supposed to beg him for another chance but I was so full of myself then.

Just curious, when he was begging for a second chance did he have all the facts he needed to make this decision? What had you told him at that point? Many of the BS that have issues years out do so as they didn’t have the full picture and feel duped. Could this be the case?

I’m just in a bad place. It’s deep in A season for me, and rereading everything it’s clearly effecting me in many ways.

I'm so sorry, friend. Sending you good juju.

He went down on her, unless he washed his face, used disinfectants for mouthwash, then same boat. And it absolutely grossed me out. Every day I came come to him and kissed him first thing, often times she hadn’t been gone an hour.

One of my AHA moments after DDay was identifying a smell from months earlier. He usually made a beeline straight for the bathroom when he got home to wash up and mask the smell of having showered at the motel. But some things don't wash off that easily.

It is definitely the sex / physical part that is bothering him (destroying him)

That's his problem. There is nothing you can do to help unless and until he wants to solve his problem.

Virtually all BSes feel attacked in their sexuality. Hikingout wrote about that from a woman's POV. I believe her. Some men feel as if they've been emasculated. IMO, that's what his self-talk tells him, but it's a lie. It's really important for BSes to notice that their equipment is intact and functional, but it's something the BS has to do for themself. It's really important for BSes to realize they are still sexy.

IMO, your H needs help, ragab. He's stuck, and he needs help getting unstuck. My heart goes out to him. He has my deepest sympathy. But I'm convinced BSes heal only if they open themselves to healing. My guess is that your H is hopeless, and he can't/won't take healing steps because he has no hope that they'll help.

If he won't accept the suggestion or request from you to find a good therapist, perhaps he'll join SI.

*****

I haven't done an actual count of responses, but threads asking about the worst part of the A come up from time to time on SI, and I believe that the more of us say the lying was worse than either the sex or the expressions of 'love'.

I think there was much more lying to BSes in affairs than sex with or professions of love to aps. Maybe that's why the lies are the worst for so many of us. That's just a guess, though.

*****

I hypothesize that BSes generalize as a way of distancing themselves from their pain. IMO, healing requires dealing directly with one's pain, so generalizing is the enemy of healing. I don't know how to test that hypothesis. I can hope only for BSes to heal. Maybe generalizing helps some BSes. I hope so.

A lot to unpack here, I always respect a WW who posts outside the wayward section.

To change response you need to change the stimulus. When he acts out please first recognize his pain and make sure he knows you Heard them. Apologize then shift to rEforce the positive s as you are still together 10 years later.

The anger is A defensive reaction driven by his insecurities.

Up front, I tend to view things pretty simply. Nuance is important, but most problems tend to be pretty fundamental at their core. Forgive me if this is too simple.
It seems like the primary sticking point for Ragab is her BH's reluctance to seek out counseling to deal with his trauma. If that weren't in the way, it seems like the other conditions would be good for successful R. That he is still there is a--shall I say--positive sign? He hasn't left, hasn't tried to have a revenge affair and--despite a very understandable desire to do so--hasn't physically injured the POSAP. He's just existing in a torturous limbo.
Ragab-Have you tried using an analogy of a physical injury with him? He says the affair is your fault and your responsibility to fix. It's true and I get that, but it's just not how this particular shit sandwich must be ingested. He has to invest in his own health. What if you had broken his arm or leg? Would the same logic apply, i.e. you broke my arm and now you must unbreak it? You can call the doctor and drive him to the hospital and even offer to help put on the cast, but he has to wear it and do the necessary therapy until it heals. It's not his fault nor fair that his arm is broken, but he still has to deal with it if he wants to get better.
Then MC. You broke the marriage and you fix it. Got it. But he is not his marriage, nor are you. Perhaps this may be a bit esoteric, but the marriage exists outside of both of you. It only exists because the two of you willed it into being. Now it is damaged.
By definition, a marriage is a two-person lift, like a sofa. One person can't move it alone. You broke the marriage when you gave yourself to another man. You also dropped the metaphorical sofa (perhaps spitefully...perhaps not) and he set his end down as well. Try as you might, you can't move it unless he picks his end back up. That is MC.
Stay strong.

That he is still there is a--shall I say--positive sign? He hasn't left, hasn't tried to have a revenge affair and--despite a very understandable desire to do so--hasn't physically injured the POSAP.

I agree with the rest of your post but him still being there may not have anything to do with love or good intentions.

As for him still being there, that part can be more complicated. I recall a couple here from way back when I joined. On the surface it sounded like they had reconciled. Behind the scenes he was controlling every aspect of her life. She had no access to money, there were cameras in her house. I am going to 100 percent say he stayed because he wanted to use her affair to create an arrangement he wanted. He had total control and could punish her to boot. He caught her messaging me, and then I never heard from her anymore, I have often wondered what happened.

Other times I can’t tell you how many bh have come here laid out this whole truly sad story, only to find out they had told their wife none of it. And they are truly miserable. My reason to point it out is there are so many people in this world who can’t bear to be alone. I am convinced they continue to say nothing for fear of rocking the boat might make their ws leave, which is so illogical. They are completely miserable, yet the thought of being left or alone taunts them far more than the misery they face in a daily basis.

[This message edited by hikingout at 7:09 AM, Friday, March 15th]

I completely get that, which is why I added the question mark. First, I don’t want to assume her situation is anything other than what she describes. Outside of his abusive language—which is far from ok—that he’s not also abusing her in other ways. He may be, but I don’t recall that.
My broader point is that since she’s still coming here and seems to still want to reconcile, there’s still a chance.
Thank you for the course correction and sorry if my post was unclear.

1994 Ragab-Have you tried using an analogy of a physical injury with him?
He actualy used it to describe to me, but he used an amputated limb. I caused a limb to be amputated (meaning it will never be the same again, and I have to live with it and can not run away from the consequences.

He also use the comparison that if you murdered somebody - and you say that you are sorry, that it will not bring the murdered person back AND that you will always be a murderer.

Sorry if I do not mention all the questions individually but will try to answer to the best of my ability.

When I eventually (with the help of si) understood the importance of the timeline and all the info, there was quite a lot of information that came out that he did not previously have. - this also answers the question that when he asked me for another chance, he only knew I had sex with another man. Nothing more. (Again I really thought and believe it would be for the best not to give him all the details)
Currently the fights is not about the details of the timeline but because I lied about it. again, in my mind, I admited to the worst and the detail did not matter and obviously, that was wrong and I explained it to him but as BS would know, it did not help at all.

I am looking at him and it is self-loafing to know I am the reason. The name calling is not always, and it is not always bad - it is as if he is in this dark pit and he wants to hurt back, attempting to get rid of his hurt, and anger.

Another question - wonder if I should start a new treat
in all honesty and take law and order out of the equation
If a BS could get "revenge" on the AP - would it have helped with the healing process?

Another question - wonder if I should start a new treat
in all honesty and take law and order out of the equation
If a BS could get "revenge" on the AP - would it have helped with the healing process?

You shouldn't even be entertaining this idea, especially as a WS.

He also use the comparison that if you murdered somebody - and you say that you are sorry, that it will not bring the murdered person back AND that you will always be a murderer.

Yes, the old marriage was murdered and you murdered it. But does he want to bury the old marriage, work on forgiveness, and start anew, or does he want to prop the corpse in the corner like Norman Bates and watch it rot?

When he acts out please first recognize his pain and make sure he knows you Heard them.

This is important. I think you'd do well to work on letting him know that he's been heard and that you're so sorry, and also that you desire a good relationship with him, but you can't do it alone. 1994's sofa analogy is a terrific one. Read that one again.

I also think, and I'm going to say it again, that you need some individual counseling. Get right with yourself so you can truly help him don his oxygen mask in a healthy, productive way.

If a BS could get "revenge" on the AP - would it have helped with the healing process?

No, and don't offer this. It's messy and makes things infinitely more complicated.