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5decades, thanks for the input! I always wanted to understand more about speech pathology. Even though I did 55 semester hours of Psychology to earn my Bachelor's in it, we were not taught much about what is going on in the brains of people with disordered communications, can you believe? The diagnosis of "auditory processing disorder" wasn't even an entry in the APA's Diagnostic and Statistic Standards Manual IV, the "big book" all my courses revolved around! Yet what is more important than being able to understand and connect with one another?

I did start off the other day by stating 'what I had already done,' but it was counter-productive, as he picked up one one word he recognized and spun out on a "repeat" loop (he does this a lot, runs whole sentences back by me for something to say or for extra schooling for the dumb wife?) To me, that is just...weird.

As far as having mental impressions about what someone might be going to say, he certainly seems to have an embedded template: but it's not yours truly. It's probably his mother, just like gray said about her WH. Thinking he is dialoging with his mother is horribly inaccurate most of the time, yet he cannot seem to shake the behavior. It isn't working for him or for me, but he deploys that "heuristic" over and over. Any tips how to de-program such a developmental arrest, anyone?

When I visited his family in a Commonwealth country down under, I observed the women of his FOO always congregated and chattered amongst themselves cheerfully about....nothing I could relate to, for what seemed an hour. Men were in a separate room! I always wanted to leave the room too - the men were discussing things I found much more relevant - but I didn't want to be rude. Maybe he learned early to tune Mummy out. She did "natter on" as the saying down there goes.

And oddly enough, my first H's mother, an English woman, had the same way of choosing to focus on minutiae, I guess to keep the noise of pleasant conversation going, but we weren't learning anything significant. Perhaps that is a cultural pattern and why I find it so irritating? I come from a pretty intense, direct American culture, not the discreet, indirect culture he was raised in. But that is getting way out there....

Shehawk, thanks for offering some more tips! Interestingly, the first time I printed off an internet coupon, I just got so far as chosimg the best priced one between local pharmacies but didn't think to match the number of pills on my doctor's script with the number of pills on the coupon. So I walked into the pharmacy with my coupon for 30 pills, a month's supply. I realized this as I was showing it to the pharmacist and asked if would work with my doctor's 90 day prescription. Pharmacist said "we could triple it," so I'd have spent $66.00. Got back home and realized I could edit the count of pills before clicking to print the coupon. Voila, a 90 day supply at the same store cost $34.00, saving me another $22.00! Took half of the first pill last night. Going to see how I handle it.

You are right that we have a lot to deal with, navigating a new diagnosis of ill health, without having to self-educate in a whole new pharmaceutical jungle!! You all are so helpful! It's not like I know a lot of people to ask these questions of. And I am a confessed healthcare sceptic which makes it worse.

Glad you got the costs sorted to an amount you feel is affordable.

I hope you feel better and your symptoms are well managed.

Sup if you want help navigating assistance programs and options for meds please reach out as this is something I do daily.
Also know the paths to access other options including getting samples and so forth.

3. Use your silence in conversations to your advantage. This is more powerful to get him to listen than you can possibly comprehend. It will also get the listener to talk, and open up, and CONCEDE more than you can imagine.

Yes, silence.

Now this is really useful. I have a tendency to be that person that fills the silent gaps. I have really been trying hard to word my questions differently (not to lead-in) and to give him time to answer. Amazing what comes from just a few moments of patience.

To break the patterned listening and responding, you will like this answer.

You control this. 100%.

1. State his name first. "Brian". Then say nothing else until he responds.
2. Use silence right here. Ssssssss-silence. You count in your head to five AFTER he says "what" when you say his name.
3. "I have x things to say."

Ssssssssssssssssssilence

He will jump in with OK WHAT!

4. You need to know right here that YOU PACE YOUR OWN SPEECH SLOWLY, because the pace of YOUR SPEECH paces the ENTIRE CONVERSATION. Every conversation you have, every time, you can control exactly how fast or slow it goes by pacing the speed you speak at.

So if you want him to hear you, SLOW THE RATE OF YOUR SPEECH.

Also, do not speak loudly. This forces attention to your voice. You want that.

5. Number the things. Say "one, WE need to x, TWO then y, and THREE comes z." Notice I said "we". That slight change makes a difference. Subtle but important. But numbering matters - it orders and specifies. People who have a habitual conversation pattern have already filled in the blanks, but you’re placing an external scaffolding on your side of the conversation that has not existed before. It’s different, and their auditory and syntactic systems will parse responses and process it differently as a result. The prerecorded responses will be rejected by what we in the biz call "central control", a kind of system that says "if I respond with this, does it make sense". In habit responses, their pat utterances do not work because your input is now breaking rules. (I’ll explain in a minute)

6. The last thing after you say your information, you end with an open-ended question. It must NEVER be a question that can be yes/no, it has to ask for them to respond verbally with their input back. Here are some ideas on this:

What are your thoughts
Tell me the things you can do on this
What holes do you see in this plan
I know you have ideas, tell me yours
How do you feel about this plan
What can you add to this
I’m sure you have some great ideas, let’s hear them because I need input here
You always have good suggestions, please add them
Tell me how we can get this done today (or by deadline)
What parts can you get done by Friday
Talk to me about what I said, and where I am right or wrong, so we get on track

It just needs to require the feedback, and not a response that shuffles you off. Because this is the habit they have formed. They hear you speak but have not heard any actual words you have said. When you change these things, it makes a difference.

Let’s say it’s your medication thing you just went through.

You: Brian. (You wait)
Him: WHAT!?
You: (after 5 count, slow and soft voice delivery) I tried to speak with the insurance company first, but they never got back with me. Second, I tried online with the pharmacy discounters. Third, I contacted ABC Medical but they cannot help. I need help from you.

Ssssssssssilence

Ultimately he will ask what you need.

You: (count to 5). Two things WE need to do: first, get in touch with pharmacy discount direct, second, get the insurance guy on the phone. What part can you do today, because I have a doctor appointment tomorrow and we need it done by then? I need help.

And you wait.

……

What you are changing in the "ordinary" dynamic here are several aspects of the interactions you ordinarily have. First, you are forcing attention at the very start of the conversation by just saying his name and waiting. When you do that, something changes in the way we pay attention, especially if the conversational partner is very familiar. That pause is very significant and is read by your brain as "the incoming message is different, it has higher importance than ordinary, because she used your name and didn’t just launch into the sentence, so something is different - heads up".

The pause before you start. That 5 count is another signal of importance. The listener reads it as you "composing your thoughts, trying to get an important message correct" before you deliver it. So your 5 count makes an impact. Pauses and silence in between, as discussed before, also allow for concessions - which, when you’re asking him to do you a favor could very well result in his agreeing to do a lot more than you expected.

The softer voice is a very subtle way to convey seriousness. When we talk too loudly we can appear to others as though we haven’t given consideration to what we’re saying. The softer voice just takes that away.

The pace of speech - very important. This serves many purposes, but it gives you control of how much time you get the floor, how much attention he will give you, and also how he will view the amount of thought and the veracity of what you say, among many other things. When people speak too quickly, a listener may think they are not thinking clearly. They may think the speaker wants the conversation to be over quickly, and so they will respond with a very short answer and brush them off without thinking much at all about the response they give. They may also ascribe a sense that the speaker isn’t telling the truth. So by controlling your own speech rate, you have a much higher likelihood of controlling his speech rate, length of engagement, and also how long his responses are as well.

Numbering. You tell the listener "you’re about to hear a list, so listen to the end". So they do.

Open-ended question to finish - this forces reengagement to be sure you got the message across and that they agree (or at least you know what they don’t agree to!).

Very useful. Especially if you’re a supervisor with a difficult employee.

Trumansworld,

Lol

My first supervisor (a superhero) told me he had published a book, and was in for renewal on it. They lowballed him, so he sat there in silence and nodded, saying "hmmmm". The publisher did the same thing. The two of them went back and forth a bit, so he got up and said he was taking his "hmmmm" to dinner. Publisher caved - book is an absolute touchstone in my field, and the superhero taught me a lot!

Silence is golden.

Thank you all for the conversation. I was seeing more of myself in Superesse's WS and other people's "problem" communicator. I think I've started to tune my WS out more.

5Decades,
Your information helped. WS and I had a conversation yesterday where I used the silence, and it helped. The conversation would probably have been frustrating and led to hurt feelings on both sides otherwise.

WS and I were sitting on the couch. There was a football game on, but I doubt either of us was fully paying attention. We hadn't spoken in at least 5 minutes, and WS said, "Is it supposed to be dry?" I just turned and looked at him in silence. Eventually he said, "Oh I was wondering whether we could open the windows and if I should get wood for a fire on the deck tonight. I realize I skipped two or three steps there. I guess I can look up the weather forecast."

The conversation would normally go like this:
Him: "Is it supposed to be dry?"
Me: Not even looking at him, "What?"
Him: "Is it supposed to be dry?"
Me: Getting frustrated. "What? Is what supposed to be dry? What are you talking about?"
Him: Also getting frustrated. "The weather. Never mind. I'll look it up myself."
Me: "How am I supposed to know that?"
Him: "Why are you getting mad at me? I'm not doing it on purpose."

For context, WS has ADHD. These issues have improved since he's been on medication. And to his credit, we had recently discussed that we wanted the weather to be cooler and less humid. By recent, I mean in the past few days, but not within 12 hours. I get frustrated because I feel he's being a lazy communicator. I don't think it's fair for me to do all the communication work to sort out his mind. It feels like he doesn't care enough to think it through. Sometimes if he's saying something that makes no sense to me, I don't even try.

I'm wondering if there is more I can read on this. I don't want to do all the work myself, but if there are things I can do to help the communication, I would like to try.

KitchenDepth,

Two things pop out at me in your scenario.

First off, you mentioned that the two of you had talked about the humidity previously. So, there’s a "thing" that happens with some people who are closely familiar (including family members, close friends, coworkers), and in also just those with ADHD. So your husband has two of these factors with you, bear this in mind.

People who are close can have a conversation about something, let’s say it’s rabbits. That conversation can carry on in snippets over the course of days - oh, hey, the rabbits were there again - without any forewarning, context, or anything required. Both parties will know exactly what is happening, and go forward without a thought about it. That is, unless that conversation wasn’t significant to both, or if the gap between snippets is just too long. In this case, it looks like the gap was too long for you between snippets.

Second, ADHD will sometimes cause people to verbalize a thought. It might be a bid for conversation, and it might not be. Waiting in silence is a really good way to let that play out. Sometimes they are saying what they are thinking, as a way to improve signal strength. That’s all it is.

-signal strength: when we are processing any information, the brain needs to focus on that information. As a result, the brain also needs to filter out other "noise", that interferes with what we are trying to focus on. So we try to do things to increase the "signal strength" of the message we are intent on. One way to do that with our own thoughts is to say them aloud, so we can hear them as we think.

We all do this. Think back to school days. When you were reading a textbook and it was something that was really hard to understand, you increased the signal strength - you turned down the tv, you read slower, or you read it aloud to yourself. You read one sentence at a time, parsing information - increasing that signal strength by slowing it for better processing time, eliminating distractions, and raising the auditory system involvement as additional input.

And another example we all have done. You’re driving, looking for a place and you’re not sure where you’re supposed to turn. So what do you do? You turn down the radio, of course! Signal strength - you decrease distractions in the brain, thus increasing signal strength on the thing you need to focus on.

Anyway, your silence allows him to hear himself - and that pause, for ADHD, brings attention to the silence, which tells them that "hey, nobody responded, did you want a response?" It allows HIS SYSTEM to figure out what it was doing. So far, it has been relying on YOUR SYSTEM for guidance - and yours is probably faster in this regard, not gonna lie. So, give him that silence. Watch how much change it makes. You will be stunned.

I don't think it's fair for me to do all the communication work to sort out his mind. It feels like he doesn't care enough to think it through.

ExACTly! Fries my gourd, especially when I'm struggling with my own issues. Maybe it is an age-related thing, because a lot of old jokes and comic strips revolve around long-married ma and pa type sniping. Hate to think maybe we are them?!

Ok, but this JUST went down minutes ago, and took my mood from neutral-content to half-pissed! I'm on a new medication to reduce my body's production of cortisol - which I know spiked sky high for the umpteenth time again just now, due to his inability OR UNWILLINGNESS (which IS it?!) to show me the courtesy of 6 seconds of listening to simple words used to finish my novel idea I wanted to share with him, but got chopped in half despite him looking right at me, sitting nearby in his wing back chair, with no newspaper, even! I get pissed because this always means I'll need to hash my idea out with him tortuously, and I really don't want to give the conversation that much attention, heh!

So I asked him if he heard the words that came after the first few and he said he did not "hear" them at all. Even as he sat there supposedly "listening." I asked him what is the reason he thinks he didn't hear that part, and he says "when you mentioned (dog's harness) I started thinking about using it..."

I said (calmly for once) "So, you switched from listening to thinking about the object I mentioned and how YOU usually deploy it, is that right?" He said "yes." I came back with "Where this goes wrong is your auditory processing shuts right down as you mentally manipulate some object, rather than just continuing to listen to an idea you didn't have. You choose to do that a lot, and we know that is a bad communication habit. Do you see how closed off you are to just receiving a message?" (from me, as nobody else gets this treatment from him!)

He sort of had a glimmer of realization. But I'm not getting my hopes up, nothing is going to change with him until he learns some freakin' respect. And turn-taking was discussed in his Communication 101 college class. But it doesn't apply to me; I am apparently not worth listening to and must be dominated at all times by the Master Fixer.

Guys, I bet this would annoy anybody, even if the person hadn't been a serial cheater, amIright? I realize my skin is extra sensitive to his daily little doses of disrespectfully cutting me off. As he gets worse with age, more and more, I think I ought to get away from him. Sadly, if he could just freaking learn some new skill(s) we'd get along so much better. But it seems pretty hopeless. Glad a couple of you have found medications that helped. We were going to take a Sunday drive after church with the dogs (who bark too loudly in the truck), but after my idea never got heard (about a new way to help quiet the 20 month old barker, without actually muzzling him, so we could all enjoy a Sunday drive) I am not that keen to go anywhere with this man. And so, how is that working for Mr. Fix-It?

Here is the idea I had (Tushnurse please give me feedback!) "What if we used the Gentle Leader harness but set it more snugly than you do for his training class, so he couldn't open his mouth so far and bark so loudly?... I lost the man right after I spoke the word "harness." His reply was "He can still bark wearing the Gentle Leader harness." (But referring to how it usually is set since we've never tried this idea before.) He had to interrupt me though, and his comment did not actually apply to my suggestion, it just gave me information we both already know. Oh well, my idea probably wouldn't have made much difference anyway, the dog would still fuss and whine, no doubt. In this case, had I used a shorter sentence, he would have replied exactly as he did reply. Then I would need to provide another modifying description. My mind is going: Just why not listen?!

[This message edited by Superesse at 3:33 AM, Monday, November 11th]

"when you mentioned (dog's harness) I started thinking about using it...."

That's a symptom of ADHD. It's a symptom of other things, too, but you describe comms with someone who's ADHD-distractable (or whatever they call it now).

Has your H been evaluated for ADHD?

Sisoon, I too really think he is ADD (not the H type) but he won't lift a finger to find someone to evaluate him, no matter how miserable things have gotten. I'm not going to push him to some doctor after I've asked him to do something a thousand times. This is why I get so very frustrated. He refuses to accept there could be anything amiss with his thinking processes. (Which makes me wonder about aspergers, psychopathy and Narcissistic traits, in that order). Even a young father I met once whose child was on the spectrum just as he was, freely admitted his own autistic issues and communication limitations when we were talking about this at a party for special ed children like his. Completely unlike the false pride of my WH, who tries to hide everything from his own awareness. That pride has always been the biggest road block to his healing this stuff and starting to do the work on our broken M. Such a shame, because I still believe he could be a good enough H/companion in my late life, with the right de-programming from his unhealed childhood wounds (unless his Psychopathic traits are just too strong. Cannot tell because it would take intense clinical evaluation. He has mellowed a bit from his cold-bloodedness but still doesn't seem to mind me having to decipher things he comes out with. I think to him my job is to pick up where his Mum left off, after she got him into Speech Therapy at 8 years old. That job NOT MY ROLE, UGH.

Have you heard of Dr. Daniel Amen? He wrote a book on the 5 types of ADHD and he has clinics around the USA where they do SPECT brain scans to show patients the areas where their brains may be underactive (he confesses in his book he has ADHD himself and states the person needs to admit it and fix what he can fix with medication, which helps the relationship.) I know you know about ADHD. I got him that book like 23 years ago. Hasn't read it, yet. Some think Amen is a quack for using that technology but it made sense to me, neurologically.

Superesse,

ExACTly! Fries my gourd, especially when I'm struggling with my own issues.

That is true. I feel disrespected or not important enough to him to try to communicate better. I'm realizing from this post that a lot of that is me. I'm making assumptions and jumping to conclusions. Also, we have these type of conversations frequently, so there's a part of that is already irritated when they start.

I'm realizing that WS and I have different brain processing. I have minor autistic tendencies. I've never been tested, but over stimulation with sound and visuals bothers my concentration. WS has ADHD. He does do the verbalizing thing. It annoys the crap out of me. For example, he asked to borrow my car the next day to go to x. I said ok. The next morning I am trying to plan my day in my head, and I ask when he wants the car. He starts in a complete brain dump of his entire schedule for the day. What I would like to hear is something like anytime between 1:00pm-4:00pm and I'll need it for 2-2.5 hrs. It aches my brain to process through the rest, and even then there might be more back and-forth to get to answer.

Hey Kitchen, don't take that on yourself as an autism thing, most anybody would expect a similar response to a simple question. Your WH may be self-talking to prime his own thinking (Uh, let's look, when exactly will I need the car...?) but he shouldn't always be using your time like YOU are HIM, that's a mental boundary I'm struggling to get set. And as the BS we are a little less charitably inclined, I find...

[This message edited by Superesse at 4:58 PM, Monday, November 11th]

KitchenDepth,

The only suggestion I have here is for your side in this type of conversation to change.

Gently:

If you know that your preference is to do something between 1 and 4, say so.

It shouldn’t matter if he has ADHD or Generalized Assholiness.

State your preference and your needs clearly. Once you do that, he has the information.

If you don’t tell him this information, it cannot be a disappointment when he doesn’t meet your needs because you didn’t tell him your needs.

I think that sometimes a person gets into a pattern where they offer to help so much that they really stop thinking about what they themselves need at all. They just see what everyone else needs first - then they work their own lives around that - much to the detriment of their own happiness. And their own needs come last - or never get met at all.

I’m guilty of this myself.

Also - He is going to process his thoughts his way - verbally, internally, whatever. That’s how he does it. You do it the way you do it. There isn’t a "correct way".

Amen writes a lot. I find Edward Hallowell compelling, but I had the pleasure of attending a presentation of his; that's what might have gotten me to seek a real diagnosis. Check out his writing. Also Thom Hartmann's early work (now he's political).

5Decades,

That is a valid point. My schedule is more flexible now, and I didn't care what part of the day he wanted the car as long as my expectation from the original conversation that he would need it for 2-3 hrs was valid. I could schedule around it. If he had asked if I could just leave my car free all day for him, I would have had a different response.

I should have asked the questions about when and how long and if his truck would be available for me before I said yes. If he had brain dumped his schedule, I could have politely told him to get back to me when he has it figured out and I'd let him know if I that would work for me or not. I do tend to oblige his requests if I can and always have.

sisoon, Thank you for the recommendations.

[This message edited by KitchenDepth5551 at 5:54 PM, Tuesday, November 12th]