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Hello again. It's been a bit since I posted last, and it's been a little over 6 months since D-day for me. I find myself in a strange kind of limbo that I'm trying to figure out. Maybe you guys can shed some light on things for me.

On D-day I immediately decided that I wanted to reconcile. I told her but had some conditions. The first being the affair must end fully and completely, and the second is she needs to start being 100% honest with me. In retrospect I think that was a mistake. I was in shock and the seriousness of the situation hadn't really sunk in yet. I should have probably waited to see if she was up for the task. But thats where we are at.

I immediately went into marriage repair mode (probably hysterical bonding actually). I spent a lot of energy trying to give her the things she said she was missing from our relationship. Things like opening doors, going on dates, spending time together, etc. I am a pretty nice person, and was generally VERY nice to her. I also spent a lot of energy trying to prevent contact with her affair partner, and get her to break it off fully. It took two and a half months for her to really break it off, and that only after I left (only overnight) and threatened divorce.

I have since come to the realization that I was trying to "fix" a marriage that she had already destroyed. I was trying to fix a memory. That and the realization that problems in the marriage DID NOT cause her to choose to have an affair. But thats a topic for another day.

In that two month period everything I asked her to do to help me trust her again she heavily resisted, and anything she did was only after me asking many times, and still with a lot of feet dragging.

After she officially broke it off with him, she started doing more of the things I wanted, still with resistance but not as much as before. Eventually she would do them though.

She is doing and saying a lot in support of our relationship. But the things she is not doing, or things she resists me on, are causing me to pause and reconsider if she is really as committed as she says she is.

First the good:

- She took, and passed, a lie detector test that I requested
- She has read a couple of books I suggested
- She is kind to me and leaves me little love notes or apology notes
- She wants to be close to me physically, and also makes it a point to include me in her plans, and also plans dates
- She says she loves me often
- She is still doing normal things around the house like she used to. Making dinner, cleaning things up, running the kids around etc. I do this stuff when I'm off work, but it often falls on her because I work all day
- She is planning long term things with me - showing that she views us as being together long term
- We spend a lot of time together. I really enjoy her company, and it's been nice getting back to that
- She installed a gps tracker app
- She gave me permission to look at her phone and read her messages or emails, to get on her computers, etc.
- She got rid of some physical reminders of the affair.
- She willingly suggested and is going to IC, and we were going to MC for a while (until I nixed that because I didn't like the way the therapist was handling it)

Now the not so good:

- Everything I can think of that I have asked her to do for me she has put up significant resistance on before doing it.

* It was two months before she took the lie detector test and that was with much stress and many objections.
* It also took me two months to convince her to read "The Courage to Stay", which I feel is a really appropriate book for us at that time.
* The next book was "How to Help your Spouse Heal from Your Affair", which she listened to on Audible right away and REALLY didn't like. I suggested that maybe it rubbed her the wrong way listening to it. I said I agree with like 98% of the book, and I bought her a physical copy, and asked her to read it and underline which parts specifically she didn't agree with. She absolutely refused to do that, handing the book back to me.
* The tracking app only took 3 or 4 weeks to convince her to install.
* It took her 6 months to get rid of the physical reminders of the affair. And that only after I asked nearly a dozen times in that period with her finally promising to do it in October. She didn't do it in October, so I brought it up again complaining that she promised and didn't uphold her promise. Then she reluctantly gave them to me for disposal. I asked her to get rid of anything at all that reminded her of the affair, but she only gave me the things I explicitly knew about already. Nothing else. She semi-defiantly says "most of the things are in my head anyway, not physical"

- She is constantly complaining of feeling like she is barely able to keep her head above water, and is on the edge of breaking down anytime we have a discussion.

- She continues to bring up past grievances when ever we have difficult discussions. Even after we have discussed them at length, I have explained my side, apologized for anything I feel I can, and promised to do better. Yet they continue to come up with the same or greater emotional intensity.

- She maintains the view that our marriage had a "rift" that I was partially responsible for and that contributed to her affair. I resist her a lot here because I feel like it's blame shifting, marriages don't cause affairs, and also most of her complaints she never discussed until after the affair was revealed. I am willing to do things she need me to do, I was before the affair as well, but she never talked to me about this stuff before.

- She says she is "sorry she hurt me", but has never said "the affair was wrong, and I will never do it again". The closest I have gotten from her is "I will never have another affair because it has been so painful leaving my affair partner and seeing you in pain"

- Most of the things to address the affair I have come up with. She doesn't usually come up with things on her own.

It seems like she just wants the affair to go away, and to be swept under the rug. This is something cannot do under any circumstances.

Anyway theres probably more I could write, but this is getting rather long.

The thing I'm trying to figure out is if these are bad signs that I should be more concerned about, or if she is on the path and I should be patient and let her make progress? Is this just me being nice again and ignoring bad signs? Or am I just being impatient and I should let things continue unfolding? My therapist says people need time to change, but I'm concerned that I just don't see a lot of change happening, and she is still resisting me on things.

I definitely don't see contrition, only remorse. But again that could simply be because this sucks and she regrets having to end the affair. Who knows.

A few thoughts ...

I think it's best to ask your WS to do things you want them to do, but it's also best to have a plan in case the WS says, 'No.'

IMO, each request is a test. To continue in R, the BS needs a vast majority of 'yes' responses with appropriate follow-through. Too many 'noes' should probably kill R.

*****

I also think IC for the WS is a good requirement for R. WSes need to turn their internal lives around. They need to change from cheater to good partner, and that's very difficult even with the help of a good IC. If a WS won't look deep inside, they won't be able to make the necessary changes. You don't mention IC. Has your W started? Do you think she's come clean with her IC? Are you in IC?

*****

She's still blameshifting, and R is impossible with a blameshifter.

*****

What do you hope to get from her reading books? My guess is some changes, and my guess is you care about the changes, not about the book.

My reco is to ask directly for the changes. But again, you need to figure out what you'll do if she says, 'No.'

*****

I don't think you're in a 'weird limbo.' You describe a sitch in which you have substantial evidence that your WS is not fully committed to the R that you want.

My reco is to define the R that you want in measurable, observable terms, to prepare yourself to call an end to R, and to confront your W with your concerns. Find out if you and she can come to an agreement on what R will be. If you don't come to that agreement, my reco would be to end your M. You don't need to be tied down to someone who betrays you and thinks you're the problem.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:23 PM, Thursday, November 14th]

You don't mention IC. Has your W started? Do you think she's come clean with her IC? Are you in IC?

Yes we are both in IC, and have been since about two weeks after D-day. This is part of the reason I'm feeling conflicted. Maybe she is handling it with her IC as she says she is, and I should just leave it be. I don't know.

Maybe you should reread HTHYSHFYA.

Your wife is doing the "haphazard but well intended" method of reconciliation also referred to as "detain and torture".

I got the quote a bit wrong, but the spirit right.

here it is:

4. Make a bungled, haphazard effort to save the marriage.

This option is usually chosen by a well-intentioned partner who is clueless about the depth of the damage caused by his/her unfaithful behavior. In his or her efforts to calm the hurting partner, the betrayer often says things like, "You should be over this by now" or, "I said I was sorry!" or, "What else do you want me to do? I can’t take it back."

The rely-on-my-own-judgment approach usually magnifies the pain and leads to a more drawn out blood-letting of the marriage until it dies.

I call this the "Detain and Torture Option."

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 10:27 PM, Thursday, November 14th]

I definitely don't see contrition, only remorse.

Actually, you aren’t seeing remorse. She’s not that far along. You are seeing regret. Regret is when you wish for a different result, like when you send regrets for not being able to attend a friend’s wedding. Remorse is a moral feeling you get when you realize you have failed to act morally. As you said, she has not stated that the affair was wrong. She sends you her regrets for hurting you but is not remorseful for having the affair. Contrition is not even on her horizon. There is a primer on this site someplace where the concepts of regret, remorse, and contrition are thoroughly discussed. I couldn’t find it just now but I know it is somewhere on SI. There is also a good discussion by Dr. George Simon on shame, guilt, regret, remorse, and contrition on the internet.

I made some of the same mistakes that I think you are making. You jumped to R before you had gathered enough facts, but you know that. Second, you are trying to make your WW change. Brother, you can only change you. She will change if she wants to. You don’t know yet whether R is attainable or even worth trying for. There are several articles in the Healing Library for newly betrayed. There is one about what the wayward spouse goes through when withdrawing from an affair. You can benefit by reading a lot of these articles, as well as the pinned posts on JFO and Reconciliation. No one knows if your wife will become truly remorseful and want to recommit to you. That takes time and it is entirely up to her.

I hope you get out of infidelity, with or without your wife. I am far from an expert, but I don’t think pushing books on her will help your cause.

The bad things in your list to me, are really bad. Its like, if you take them individually they are not ideal, but not complete deal breakers, but combined together, to me paints a picture that all the items on your good list are fake, going through the motions to placate you. To me, a remorseful WS that really wants you and the marriage would metaphorically be on their hands and knees begging you to stay daily. Any request you make should be an enthusiastic yes from her.

I think your big mistake is jumping right in to wanting R, and then having to lead her around. Is there anything that she spearheaded towards recovery? Or have you had to tell her everything you needed?
The good news is it sounds like you are almost in a "I don’t give a shit anymore" stage, which contrary to conventional wisdom, gets you closer to what you want. You really have to get to a place where divorce is fine with you in order to get your power back. I don’t see anywhere in your story where she believes divorce is a real possibility?

Consequences are important.
Most of the time with a WS like this, it’s not until separation and divorce proceedings are in motion where they finally pull their head out of their ass. Sometimes for the BS it’s already too late at that point.

Hmmm. looks like you are putting the cart before the horse, in that you are deciding to R from the get-go, rather than taking a step back to assess the situation holistically, where you can then make sound choices/decisions on which pathway to take, R or D. You are only taking all the actions that you think you need to head towards R.

- She took, and passed, a lie detector test that I requested

* It was two months before she took the lie detector test and that was with much stress and many objections.

- She has read a couple of books I suggested

* It also took me two months to convince her to read "The Courage to Stay", which I feel is a really appropriate book for us at that time.

- She installed a gps tracker app

* The tracking app only took 3 or 4 weeks to convince her to install.

- She got rid of some physical reminders of the affair.

* It took her 6 months to get rid of the physical reminders of the affair. And that only after I asked nearly a dozen times in that period with her finally promising to do it in October. She didn't do it in October, so I brought it up again complaining that she promised and didn't uphold her promise. Then she reluctantly gave them to me for disposal. I asked her to get rid of anything at all that reminded her of the affair, but she only gave me the things I explicitly knew about already. Nothing else. She semi-defiantly says "most of the things are in my head anyway, not physical"

You are also romanticizing the 'effort' your WW has put into the R process, where you seem to be spoon-feeding her what she should be doing. She does not give up all the physical reminders of her AP possibly because she is still planning to be with him once she has you lulled into a false sense of security.

When you have to spoon-feed a reluctant party, they will probably just go along with what you want, just to make you happy and save themselves grief. This course of actions seems to stem from your desperate need to R and not consider any other pathways.

You are trying to push your WW towards R, and she may or may not want R, so both your end-goals are not matching, which keeps you in limbo.

If the wayward wanted the R pathway, they would be doing all that you listed on their own without you prompting/leading them. They would be bending over backwards to try and earn your trust back.

In your case, your WW is dragging her feet, like the reluctant child who is told to go back into the house when she really wants to play outside with her 'friend'.

I definitely don't see contrition, only remorse.

Perhaps you meant to say 'I definitely don't see remorse, only guilt.'? If your WW felt remorse, she would be doing things to try and earn a chance at R, to make sure that you feel safe with her.

But again that could simply be because this sucks and she regrets having to end the affair.

Going to be blunt here: I have a sneaky feeling this is the current situation, as she has not had any serious consequences (apart from not being able to cavort with her AP). She is still blaming you for the A, and you seem to be accepting it, confusing blame for the A to blame for the breakdown of the M. The state of the M is never to be taken as an excuse for an A. There are choices that can be made where an A never happens. Your WW probably knows that you will never leave her, so she feels that she does not have to do anything, and that you will do all the work.

RR

[This message edited by RocketRaccoon at 7:13 AM, Friday, November 15th]