SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

As I think about romantic relationships going forward, I have an idea in my head that has taken enough form that it isn’t going away and I’d really like this group’s feedback on it. It’s infidelity adjacent, but I think it’s relevant.

I am coming to believe that a necessary part of a healthy romantic relationship is the ability to step into (and out of) a certain role or archetype for a period of time. That in a friendship we primarily interact with each other from a place of our individuality. But within romance, there is a desire to be something more timeless. That I want to be a Man (capital M) meeting with a Woman. Maybe even The Man, meeting with The Woman. To enter that dance and tap into something primal. To enter that for times of enchanted moments, and then transition back to our individualities and interact as good friends. Think of the Garth Brooks song, She’s Every Woman.

I think infidelity can be a malignant form of this, people pretending and destroying loyalty and decency in the process. But this theatre can be done within relationship, it doesn’t have to be destructive or taboo.

Anyway, I would love to get feedback on this.

You've been re-reading "the way of the superior man"?

Never read it. Should I?

Is this purely a hypothetical or is it related to a specific situation? After even a few years participating in many of your threads, I admit to still not being sure...

Well, in any relationship--even friendship, we all play roles. And we all have rules for those roles that, if you really look at it, are at least some requirements i.e., restrictions on our individuality. In a friendship, my rule is that we share positive energy with each other and that you represent yourself honestly then away from each other, you aren't talking bad behind my back and you are at least not out robbing any banks i.e., you are a decent person. And then on top I trust you aren't taking an adversarial relationship against anyone in my tribe. If someone were a lawyer prosecuting a case against my cousin then it would be hard for me to stay friends. So yes still some rules indeed but hopefully for the right people they don't feel like a restriction on anyone's individuality.

In a romantic relationship you are merging more tightly so there are more rules for the roles that you play. There also must be physical attraction so you must present as a Man (to use your capitalization) and she as a Woman.

I'd even go so far to say that in general (widening out from just romantic relationships) we like or dislike someone not just because whether or not they are a good person but just as much for the roles they have us play. An example would be someone implying that we are closer than we really are. Another example would be someone who see us as we want to see ourselves vs someone who doesn't see us as we want to see ourselves, even if they mean well.

I realize that sounds esoteric so I'll give a few examples.

1. One day years ago it snowed and I was parallel parking my vehicle. This woman who thought she was being helpful tried directing me! (she was trying to direct me from outside the car that is) Even though I got that she probably meant well, I ignored her (without hitting her w my vehicle obviously) and used my mirrors and skills. Then when I got out of the car I didn't even acknowledge her, I just went on my way. I can handle my own machinery thankyouverymuch!

2. I have an older relative who does not have much money. He jokes about me taking him out for dinner and a beer whenever I am in town visting my family. Thing is, whenever I am in town, I am always too busy to hang out. Thing is, if he didn't make those jokes, I'd be more willing to help him out, but I aint at anyone's back-and-call.

With that said, you are entirely right and justified for wanting a woman who will view you as her lover. I don't think your STBX-WW in her selfishness and dysfunction, would ever let you play that role. I really believe that she is someone who needs to feel that she is the more virtuous one so she could only feel like a lover to guys she had to save. My read at a distance at least. You deserve much MUCH better than that, and it is (part of) the reason why I was pushing so hard for you to D.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:31 PM, Tuesday, February 18th]

I am not sure if I am understanding this exactly.

I think that it’s about meeting someone who is self actualized and compatible with you. They know themselves, and they have things that fulfill them like friends, hobbies, family, other interests. They feel whole in their own, you feel whole on your own. You share similar sensibilities and are compatible but with a good physical chemistry.

I feel like I have that but don’t feel like I have experienced the noticing taking off and putting on of different roles. Maybe you are talking about having someone on such a pedestal that the communication is second to how it might make them feel?

It isn’t that we aren’t constantly in different roles -we may be talking partner stuff- finances, or parent stuff, or maybe just about our day or an external problem one of us is trying to solve, but I am not aware of there being a separate driver behind any of it so I think I might be missing what you are illustrating?

Maybe it’s that pedestal itself you are trying to convey. I can kind of see how if we are alone together and intimacy is unfolding,all the goodwill built up can become its own expression or worship of that romantic passionate feeling between us. But if it’s the fire you mean, I feel like I carry the embers of that around and it is still present when we are casually hanging out
Or wearing some of the different hats.

Sorry if I butchered this.

I think I understand what you mean. Tell me if this is it:

Most of the time, my H and I are besties who swap hoodies and compliment each other's burps. But sometimes, especially when we dress up for something, we slip into more of a traditional lady and gentleman type vibe. Old fashioned gender roles are at play. He's already very attentive, but he becomes even more so, and I'm much more feminine. I'm not interested in playing that role all the time, but it can help a couple feel quite a powerful romantic connection, and if you have the besties vibe underlying the lovers vibe, you've got it all.

Is this purely a hypothetical or is it related to a specific situation? After even a few years participating in many of your threads, I admit to still not being sure

Not entirely theoretical, but still heady enough to match my reputation? I do so like keeping you on your toes.

Most of the time, my H and I are besties who swap hoodies and compliment each other's burps. But sometimes, especially when we dress up for something, we slip into more of a traditional lady and gentleman type vibe. Old fashioned gender roles are at play. He's already very attentive, but he becomes even more so, and I'm much more feminine.

I think OG is on my wavelength here.

Another way of saying what I'm trying to talk about can be thought of as almost the complete opposite of "soul mates". Dare I admit that I've spent some time on dating apps, and even some dates. I have found the experience to be strange after being connected to one woman for pretty much my entire adult life. Having given my sexuality only to her. Having a pride and joy in that exclusivity. And now here I am, out in the wild, and realizing how important just the basics of sexual attraction are. And how much I missed them in a dysfunctional marriage.

There is a country song "Gettin' You Home", by Chris Young. Describes a date night between two lovers, cut short because both of them realize that they both are lusting after each other and would prefer to be home alone. I never had that experience with her. She never wanted me like that. And while it's just a song, and it doesn't involve me and my relationship, it speaks to something I want. A role I want to step into for a number of nights a year. And it strikes me that even as a single man, I can want that without having a specific partner in mind for it yet. I just know I want The Woman.

Again, apologies if this is too removed from the mission of the site. I can sense connection points more than I can put them to words right now. And I have a sense that I have something to gain by discussion it with you all.

**made a joke that probably wasn't in the best taste so I deleted**

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 11:10 PM, Tuesday, February 18th]

I can't wait for you to find The Woman. You deserve that connection, and I believe that you'll find it. Just based on the emotional intelligence and introspection that I've seen here, I think you're going to make someone a great partner. I'm happy for you that you're on this journey finally.

"Never read it. Should I?"

It's not the gospel, but it makes some good points. I don't personally put it in the boilerplate advice.

At the risk of nearly blame shifting, that and "No More Mr Nice Guy" are both books I bet many BH's would find useful. Maybe just overall useful male self help books, but as the whole male self help genre goes, there are bits you probably don't want it need to buy in to to get the value out.

As with all advice, take what works, leave the rest.

[This message edited by This0is0Fine at 6:03 AM, Wednesday, February 19th]

Ink... Buddy.

After everything you have been through, after all the denials about how wrong everyone was, then to discover that we all had your WW pegged from the beginning... This is what you are thinking about?

I am sure that this post will get deleted I guess... But Ink...

NOOOO!!! This is not how it works.

How about this... You focus on being an authentic, confident man, that believes and loves his self. A MAN that understands that he is a good person that deserves to be with a good person. A man that will recognize when he is being abused and leave that relationship without hesitation. A man that believes in the real authentic version on himself. A man that understands who he is and what he wants.

If you have multiple versions of yourself, then you are already being inauthentic.

No, be the only version, the one version, of the man you want to be. Strong, confident, loving to his self and others, willing to take life head on, on his terms.

That is what you should want to be, and I for one hope that you get there.

[This message edited by BluesPower at 1:42 PM, Wednesday, February 19th]

After everything you have been through, after all the denials about how wrong everyone was, then to discover that we all had your WW pegged from the beginning... This is what you are thinking about?

I mean, it’s been a long ass time since I was declaring how wrong everyone here was. Not sure how long it takes to get the message across that I see it now. But I’m not really sure how that applies to this. But I do love getting messages that surprise me, I usually learn something from them.

I am sure that this post will get deleted I guess... But Ink...

I’ve quoted you now, so you should be safe…

NOOOO!!! This is not how it works.

What isn’t? Cause I thought OG with her description of flatulence compliments coexisting with high society nights mirrored my thoughts pretty well.

How about this... You focus on being an authentic, confident man, that believes and loves his self. A MAN that understands that he is a good person that deserves to be with a good person. A man that will recognize when he is being abused and leave that relationship without hesitation. A man that believes in the real authentic version on himself. A man that understands who he is and what he wants.

What about what I said doesn’t jive with this? I’m actually (very sadly) in a situation right now where I am ending one, possibly two, close long friendships over how I’m being treated, and the inability to make any progress. I think I’ve figured out this leaving when I need to thing.

If you have multiple versions of yourself, then you are already being inauthentic.

No, be the only version, the one version, of the man you want to be. Strong, confident, loving to his self and others, willing to take life head on, on his terms.

I’m a wise, confident leader at work. And for whatever reason, I love to kiss babies. Pretty different manifestations of one whole. Making me think of the parable of the blind men examining the elephant.

That is what you should want to be, and I for one hope that you get there.

Thanks. I don’t see your name pop up often, but I do remember you from my early days. Sorry for telling you you were wrong then It’s still jarring to think of how far my views of her have had to travel. I truly thought the world of her…

There is a country song "Gettin' You Home", by Chris Young. Describes a date night between two lovers, cut short because both of them realize that they both are lusting after each other and would prefer to be home alone. I never had that experience with her. She never wanted me like that. And while it's just a song, and it doesn't involve me and my relationship, it speaks to something I want. A role I want to step into for a number of nights a year.

Normal to crave what you haven’t had or experienced. I guess I always assumed most married couples had this at least in the beginning. We did, and kids took over for a while but even then there were times we went parking because we couldn’t wait to get home. So I get it, everyone deserves to feel that sort of lust and magic with the person they are with.

You had confused me more about putting it down for the friendship aspects of the relationship. Sometimes that is what ramps it up- it comes down to that likeability shared between two people that a lot of the time this is just as much so a driver as anything else.

When I read things like this I am greatly reminded how much I have taken for granted in my relationship over the years. I don’t think you are off base at all and I do think this can and is executed in healthy relationships all the time. Chemistry is very important, it’s not explainable. When I first found myself attracted to my husband back in the day it really had little to do with looks and more this current I could feel growing between us. That current has been relatively present through the years except at the places I was most unhealthy. So I do think when everyone is healthy an indicator of this is sort of what you are describing here…the ability to enjoy each other so much that the ebb and flow keeps producing that crest of craving. We often ask ourselves if we will be like this at 80 and the answer is probably! Or hopefully!

So yes, I do see what you are saying. In the first post I thought more like blue power. All you are saying is you want to feel that heady excitement when the world becomes what is in front of each of you. And there are many other ways you may see that you can have that in various forms. You deserve it, and I believe you will find it. (After a good period of getting out there and learning more about who you are and what you want from dating adventures. Try and enjoy that process.)

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:38 PM, Wednesday, February 19th]

This sparked an important - and very timely - conversation with my H last night. He's always trying to get me to dress up and go out for a nice dinner, but I'd rather throw on jeans and go out for TexMex. We're great at being best buds, but we definitely do not have enough romance in our lives, and that's my fault. He just wants to show me off on his arm, treat me like a "lady", be the man. I need to let him.

He raised a good point: Underneath it all, we're animals. Without the primal Man/Woman interactions, romantic connection has suffered. I think he might even feel somewhat emasculated that I haven't wanted to expend the effort to get dressed up and go out with him. And then, ahem, other things are affected. It takes a lot of different threads to weave the perfect tapestry, doesn't it?

He thanks you for this thread!

PS - The last time we got dressed up and went to a [what used to be fancy] steakhouse, we were the only ones there in nice clothes. There was literally a woman at the next table in fleece pajama bottoms. It put a damper on the romance. lol I grew up rubbing elbows with those in high society. I've been out of it for decades and don't have the funds to dress like they do, so I'm intimidated by the nicer places. It's been easier not to try at all. I need to remember that it doesn't matter what they think. I don't know them. It doesn't matter.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 4:53 PM, Wednesday, February 19th]

**made a joke that probably wasn't in the best taste so I deleted**

I, for one, laughed

He thanks you for this thread!

That warms my heart, OG. Thanks for sharing!

I recommend Love and Limerence by Dorothy Tanov (Tannov?). One of her points is that some of us get limerent,; some of us don't ... or, as I believe, haven't met the right person yet. Personally, I've been in limerence since 1965. I fell for a voice, not even knowing at a conscious level if the voice was from a male or female.

*****

Just to be sure, my reco is to be yourself, whatever role you're in.

Man, I came of age a year before Hefner started spouting 'the Playboy philosophy', which told impressionable young adult men how to behave. Under its influence, I went 15 months without a date. I finally realized I was trying to be someone I wasn't (someone I didn't like, too). Life got better pretty quickly after I decided to be myself.

Personally, I've been in limerence since 1965. I fell for a voice, not even knowing at a conscious level if the voice was from a male or female.

Alright, you’ve said some mysterious things over the years, but this might take the cake 🎂. I have no idea what you mean by this, care to elaborate?

Just to be sure, my reco is to be yourself, whatever role you're in.

Man, I came of age a year before Hefner started spouting 'the Playboy philosophy', which told impressionable young adult men how to behave. Under its influence, I went 15 months without a date. I finally realized I was trying to be someone I wasn't (someone I didn't like, too). Life got better pretty quickly after I decided to be myself.

Interesting. Maybe I’ll push the interpretation of your comment and see how far you push back. Are you saying that you think there are no gender role elements involved in romance and attraction? That it’s all about just individual to individual relating?

@InkHulk, post #16:

I, for one, laughed

Alright, back by popular demand:

WBFA post #9, original version

On that note @InkHulk, I'll share another spiritual view of mine, surely one that you have come across yourself:

God wants for us as men to be *pimps*, NOT *simps*!

Maybe you can share this at your Bible study/Christian/religious group meetings. Say you heard it from someone wise who goes by WBFA

On a serious note: I do think the book "Way of the Superior Man" is a good read, evwen if the language occasionally devolves into what may seem like bad poetry at least to some. She is the river and you are the banks may get eyes rolling, but there are some powerful insights in the book.

It is in a lot of my takes on here. We simply CANNOT make a woman be the sole or primary focus on our being. This is why the "R is possible if you want it to be" advice given on here, said to a BH, seriously gets my cackles up. First, even WANTING R with a woman who has proven herself severely disloyal to us, is as far as I see it, a codependent (but all-too-human) mindset. It is a problem in and of itself! I think part of SI should be to warn newer BHs of the very dangers OF that mindset, instead of peddling the hopium and telling them that R is possible.

I mean, if a friend of yours was suddenly broken up with by his girlfriend who didn't ever treat him all that well to begin with, you'd let him grieve....but you'd tell him that he needs to move on, and you'd be suggesting yes he still grieve and go through all his emotions, but also that he take up 'hard' stuff like weight-training with lots of heavy compound movements (or even more of them), investing in himself. You'd also be trying to tell your friend that, on the one hand, she aint coming back, and on the other hand, how their are women out there who would make better girlfriends than his ex ever was. You might even tell him that the best way for him to get over one woman is to get himself under another! You sure as hell wouldn't be encouraging him to get back with his ex-gf. But I digress here.

Related to your background, @InkHulk, you are as I am understanding a born-again Christian, where on the one hand they tend to take a more traditional take on the roles of men and women. So the aforementioned book WOTSM may resonate with you. On the other hand, your Church may have also been pushing you to take on a more co-dependent role too--as in you are the one who should bend e.g., 'time to forgive and forget, she said she was sorry!'. I allow rugsweeping may even be advocated. That may have held your healing back.

My 2 cents.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 2:16 AM, Friday, February 21st]