SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I notice a lot of posts with an enormous amount of attention devoted to betrayal, injustice, uncertainty, the meaning of the past, and the BS's or WS's psychological shortcomings.

This may sound a little trite, but there's often comparatively little about enjoying one's partner, being curious about them, having fun together, laughing, or creating pleasurable experiences.

Of course, this is an infidelity support forum, so it's entirely understandable that people come here to discuss their pain.

But I wonder whether we sometimes overlook something fundamental: what is it actually like to be in a relationship with us?

Do we make our partners feel liked, enjoyed, understood and appreciated? Do we take an active interest in their inner world? Do we contribute to making everyday life together pleasurable?

And how often do we ask ourselves these questions, rather than concentrating on what our partners are or aren't doing?

And how often did we do this before the betrayal(s)?

One partner's happiness doesn't establish that the relationship was mutually satisfying.

I'm not asking why someone cheated. I'm not saying every betrayed spouse or even wayward spouse shares responsibility for an unsatisfying pre-affair marriage.

I'm asking what it was like to be married to each of us, before and after the betrayal.

That's a different question, and I think it's worth exploring independently of who was responsible for the affair.

Look, there is a very fine line between healthy self awareness and enthusiastic, unprompted masochism. Plenty of unfaithful partners will happily hold their hands up and admit their spouse was kind, attentive, and thoroughly lovely, yet they cheated anyway simply because they were selfish, lacked basic moral fibre, or fancied a bit of illicit novelty on a grim Tuesday afternoon. In those circumstances, sitting around wondering whether you should have injected more whimsical banter into the breakfast routine is just inventing fresh ways to beat yourself with your own stick.

If I hold that mirror up to my own seven year relationship that ended in betrayal, what was it actually like to be with me? Well, I can be rather argumentative, to the absolute astonishment of nobody, and living with me back then was almost certainly much the same as living with me today. But the great, blinding epiphany I dragged out of the wreckage was not that I had failed to be a sufficiently delightful companion. The real issue was that my partner picker was utterly knackered.

I chose someone who had monkey branched straight into my life from her previous relationship the second she grew bored. Naturally, with clockwork reliability, she eventually pulled the exact same trick on me. If you welcome someone in knowing they treat people as convenient stepping stones, you cannot act utterly bewildered when they hop to the next lily pad. We simply coasted on great fun and physical chemistry until it congealed into a serious commitment, without ever having a proper adult conversation about boundaries or checking whether our moral compasses were pointing in remotely the same hemisphere. That was where my real mistake lay.

The lesson was never about turning myself into an entertaining one man circus just to keep a partner faithful. You cannot charm, amuse, or cajole someone into possessing basic human decency. You can learn what is important to you in relationship and find someone who shares those values moving forward though.

So by all means, self examine away. It is good for the soul. But I would wager that in an astonishing number of cases, the only thing a betrayed spouse actually needs to adjust about themselves is what they will tolerate, and who they deem worthy of sharing their life in the first place. It sounds terribly simple on the surface, but looking at the frankly staggering pile of wreckage in places like this, getting our vetting right is clearly the hardest lesson of all to master.

I did not have an unsatisfying pre affair marriage.

@DRSOOLERS

I'm not suggesting that anyone should become a more entertaining companion to prevent infidelity, or that being insufficiently delightful explains why someone cheated.

You mention that you can be argumentative. That's an interesting example. One might decide that this is simply part of one's temperament, or one might become curious about how it affects the experience of living together. Neither has anything to do with responsibility for infidelity.

I agree that choosing a compatible partner matters enormously. I just don't think choosing a good partner and becoming a good partner are competing endeavours.

I think compatibility comes down to 3 main characteristics

1. Mutual physical attraction
2. Compatible lifestyle choices
3. Relationship skills (possibly already acquired), OR crucially a Willingness to Learn Relationship skills (including curiosity, emotional regulation, communication, mirroring, repair and collaboration.)

I think I chose a compatible partner and I think my partner equally chose a compatible partner in me. We are both awesome people, if I dare say so myself. Infidelity has not changed my view on that.

But, being married to me used to be exhausting. It's much less so now.
There were many skills I have since had to learn. Some of them I am still working on daily A lot of them overlap.
Mirroring, Validation (other & self), Self Soothing / managing my fight/flight responses, building safety mainly through embodiment/touch, developing curiosity - really observing myself and others, insisting on satisfying levels of repair.

I think staying married is the most complex task I've ever had to manage.

One thing I've come to appreciate is the difference between introspection and actually developing relationship skills.
I see a great deal of introspection on these boards. But introspection can sometimes become an endless exercise in analysing the past, our partners and ourselves, without necessarily changing how we relate to other people.

For me, the really transformative work has been learning and practising different behaviours, often long before they felt natural.

Learning to repair myself to either be able to participate more fully in a marriage (or end it! but without cheating), and do the same in a world of complex human relationships is a deep and awe-inspiring experience.

@LittleMonk

My question isn't based on the assumption that pre-affair marriages were unsatisfying, though. I'm interested in what it was like to BE MARRIED to each of us, whether the marriage was satisfying or not.

I feel like you compatibility list is missing a curial element for me. Mutual physical attraction, shared lifestyle preferences, and a healthy appetite for communication workshops are all very pleasant, but they completely bypass the single most essential foundation of the lot, which is an aligned moral outlook. Without a shared ethical compass, you are not actually building a resilient partnership. You are merely having a lovely time, enjoying great conversation and pleasant holidays with someone who will systematically abuse your trust the moment your back is turned.

I would encourage people to look for partners who are fundamentally opposed to betraying you. Outside of that. Yes relationship skills are important and discuss them is great. I personally don't see the link to infidelity.

I actually think you develop your moral outlook as you develop your relationship skills in order to develop Aristotle's Friendship of Virtue with your husband/wife.

The Friendship of Virtue (Complete Friendship)

* The Basis: Mutual respect, admiration, and love for the other person's good character. You wish the best for them simply for their own sake.
* Examples: Deep, long-term "soul friends" who support your personal and moral growth, tell you hard truths, and stick with you through thick and thin.
* Duration: Enduring and rare. Because it is rooted in character rather than transient use or pleasure, it lasts a lifetime

For Aristotle, virtues aren't simply beliefs we hold.
They are dispositions developed through practice.
We become just by performing just actions, courageous by performing courageous actions, and so forth.
Likewise, you might become more compassionate by repeatedly practising curiosity and validation, even when you initially feel irritated.
Eventually, what began as deliberate behaviour can become a relatively stable characteristic.
You don't merely learn to act like a more compassionate person. You can become one.

My question isn't based on the assumption that pre-affair marriages were unsatisfying, though. I'm interested in what it was like to BE MARRIED to each of us, whether the marriage was satisfying or not.

In Gottman terms, our marriage was not characterized by contempt, criticism, defensiveness, or stonewalling. I turned toward my wife. I was vulnerable, honest, transparent, affectionate, energetic toward the relationship, intentional and respectful of her autonomy. I am securely attached, so I was equally comfortable being close to her and giving her space to be herself.

This is not simply my retrospective view of the marriage. My wife herself describes our marriage before the affair as great. She has stated so in therapy.

We could talk for hours and not get bored with one another. We genuinely enjoyed each other's company. We shared interests, were affectionate, and liked one another as people. She felt loved, understood, supported, connected to me and desired. She has told me that I was, and still am, her person.

One of the harder things people must understand about infidelity is that a spouse can feel loved, understood, connected, desired, supported and happy in a marriage and still have an affair.

In my case, I don't feel I could have done anything very much differently before the affair, given the information available to me at the time. Part of my philosophy throughout our marriage has been mindfulness.

I endeavor to see reality clearly, as it actually is, and then live intentionally through the beautiful moments while surviving the difficult ones. Awareness without avoidance, honesty without self deception, responsibility without paralysis, compassion without abandoning boundaries, and growth without demanding perfection.

"What was it like to be married to me?" She says it was pretty good.

[This message edited by LittleMonk at 1:47 PM, Monday, October 19th]

I actually think you develop your moral outlook as you develop your relationship skills in order to develop Aristotle's Friendship of Virtue with your husband/wife.

This is still skirting around victim-blaming and shifting accountability away from the wayward spouse. I’m not sure why you seem so invested in pushing this view.

A person’s honor and morality exist entirely independently of their relationship status or any relationship skills mutually demonstrated within a marriage. If your goal is to turn chicken shit into chicken salad, you are going to be fighting an uphill battle for a very long time—hoping a partner suddenly develops an absent sense of morality and character through relationship coaching. Perhaps it works on occasions, but you would have a much happier, easier path by simply finding someone who already possesses those foundational traits.

Implicitly, you are suggesting that if a couple possesses healthy relationship skills, infidelity won't occur. We know this is simply untrue through countless examples shared by both betrayed and wayward spouses.

Presumably—unless I am mistaken about your history—you were in the exact same relationship as your partner, yet you didn't cheat and they did.

What stopped you from cheating and allowed them to do so was your personal commitment to your individual morality. Character, integrity, and honor are internal traits—they are not dependent on the state or quality of a relationship.

This is a critical trait to vet for when choosing a partner, lest you find yourself right back in this position. Recognizing this was my single biggest takeaway from betrayal, and that lesson has been crucial in helping me find and build a happy, loyal marriage today. I don't think it can be so lightly hand-waved away.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 2:28 PM, Monday, October 19th]

Presumably—unless I am mistaken about your history—you were in the exact same relationship as your partner, yet you didn't cheat and they did.

BoiledEggs is a (I assume former) wayward spouse.

@Pogre

Ahhh. Ok. Missed that. that changes a ton of context. Kind of makes more sense to me.

My W's A came 45 years into our relationship. Even she said our M was good to very good. (I thought it was VG.) was more in love and like with her after 45 years than I was at 1, 2, 10,...44 years - iow, I loved her more as time went on.

I did not like her during her 22 week A. I did not like her for a long while after d-day. I did not admire her during the A nad after d-day, and admiration for the way she used her brain was a cornerstone (I thought) of our relationship. For many months, I loved her but was not in love with her.

So are you saying I should have lied? How the hell could R have worked if I had done that?

Or is lying a 'relationship skill'? I don't think it is. My W has some clothes that she likes and I don't. She knows I don't like them. I don't dwell on my dislike when she wears them, but she knows. We're still together, and our 50th wedding anniversary is well in our rearview mirror. Honesty IS the best policy.

As for morals, since we KNOW that it's common for people to change their moral stances by observing the differences between what people say and what the same people do, I remain shocked that anyone thinks the moral code they adopt protects them from violating that moral code. Not that I'm argumentative or anything like that.... (Playing this time, DRS. I assume you'll see my shock as my problem, not yours. I sure do. )