SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

I was on my way home from having my truck serviced today and heard this little gem:

"Mrs. Steven Rudy" by Mark McGuinn

Not actually cheating but he sure does want to…

Like others have said, when you really pay attention to lyrics, cheating is everywhere.

Honorable Mention:

"Keep on Loving You" by REO Speedwagon (I can’t believe how many people play this at their wedding. "And though I know all about those men, still I don’t remember")

"Take it on the run", "That ain’t love" and "Time for me to Fly" are also REO songs that "hit me hard" since D-Day (yes I’m old)

Kevin Cronin (REO lead singer) has been through some shit. He wrote "Keep on Loving You" after finding out his wife had been unfaithful multiple times when they were dating before they were married. He said it is the most painful song he ever wrote. The theme is "I’m keeping MY vows" ("when I said that I love you I meant that I love you forever. So I’ gonna keep on loving you"). Spoiler alert! They got divorced anyway….

"Faithfully" by Journey causes my WW to leave the room…

@InkHulk, I have to ask this...have you talked to your IC about codependence? From your posts on here...

No, but it’s a valid question. It fits with my history of growing up in an alcoholic home with divorce. I just spent some time reading about it, there are elements of it that seem familiar to me.

1. You locked onto R, even right after your DDay. And since then you seemed to have had lines in the sand and yet she blew right through them. And after all this time she is still not opening up as she should, and by your own admission she was still telling you lies even recently. And yet here you are, staying. (I don't know if I'd call you a pushover though--you do seem to be laying the law as far as banning this music or this hobby.)

It’s pretty common for a BS to react by protecting what they feel they are losing, I don’t see that as odd. I have stayed post D-Day 2, created by some pretty huge lies. I did separate, I chose to try again, a fully feelings based decision I would say. A hard to explain decision, but also not terribly uncommon around here. I’m not aware of any lies after this D-Day 2, about 5 months ago. And of course, there is a decent contingent here that is advocating for the appropriateness of her giving info as asked at this stage in the game.

2. You have even seemingly taken to also being a therapist to your WW to an extent, heloing her heal from her (supposed) FOO issues.

This is flat incorrect. She is doing IC and taking in many books on her own initiative. And the FOO issues are very real, that was a silly little jab.

3. You often seem to be putting your WW's pain of having to disclose details about her affair, above your pain of being betrayed. (I did mention this before, on this page)

I’m clearly not putting her pain above my own or I wouldn’t still be talking about it. But if I didn’t care about her pain, then I’d be just as bad as her indifference in the A. It’s amazing how many super hero movie references make their way in here

A lot of people, including many Christian denominations, seem to view the above as some sort of virtue. I don't agree with this at all!

Yeah, there is certainly some overlap of what some regard as selfless virtue with codependency. I’ve referenced the Great Divorce before, but will continue to, it does a great job of showing how virtue can be degraded and unhealthy. I could be convinced that I’ve taken selflessness to unhealthy levels, in some areas of life. I think it’s something worth talking to my IC and MC about. I appreciate the post, genuinely.

Had an IC session this morning. I opened it with "so an internet stranger told me I should talk to you about codependency"

We talked about it. Again, can see some elements. But it’s not like I’m knowingly enabling her affair, like saying "fine, have a boyfriend, just DONT LEAVE ME!" So I’m comfortable saying I’m not ragingly codependent. But I did think about, internet stranger.

What was more impactful at IC was getting a glimpse of some underlying FOO stuff for me. My IC turned the conversation toward me (how dare he! ) and asked what it was like growing up with an alcoholic father. Seemed like a perfectly reasonable question, I went to start talking about it and by the second word it was all I could do to not sob. No specific memories, no warning it was coming, just some kind of untapped reservoir of raw emotion sitting ever so slightly under the surface. I’m honestly kind of freaked out, asking myself things like "how big is this", "what do I do about this", and "how has this impacted my life and relationships"? It seems like a really big discovery for me, I hope my IC is up to the challenge of exploring this with me. I know this isn’t entirely infidelity related, but I have no doubt whatever this is has been a source of pain for my wife in our marriage (not not not saying this is the reason she cheated) and for me personally. I’m quite hopeful today, it seems like a discovery with a lot of potential for healing if properly treated.

Also, I have decided for myself that I am going to continue to rock out to The Outfield, no matter what any of you say. That is all.

I have decided for myself that I am going to continue to rock out to The Outfield, no matter what any of you say.

Me too. In fact, I did yesterday after reading this thread.

I’m quite hopeful today, it seems like a discovery with a lot of potential for healing if properly treated.

My H has been going down this same road for about a year. I wish you clarity and healing and godspeed.

Seemed like a perfectly reasonable question, I went to start talking about it and by the second word it was all I could do to not sob. No specific memories, no warning it was coming, just some kind of untapped reservoir of raw emotion sitting ever so slightly under the surface.

I feel like most of us who have done IC have had this experience at some point or another - myself included. I remember my husband coming out of one of his earlier IC sessions and being like, "oh man, she must think I'm crazy, I just started bawling halfway through the session today when we were talking about X and couldn't stop." Everyone has FOO issues (even if we were privileged enough to have reasonably healthy, safe, childhoods seemingly free of significant trauma). A lot of the time we think we have processed and dealt with these issues, and put them away in their appropriate box, until something major happens and shakes everything loose.

I know this isn’t entirely infidelity related, but I have no doubt whatever this is has been a source of pain for my wife in our marriage (not not not saying this is the reason she cheated) and for me personally.

Typically, the biggest most important relationships in your life are the ones with your parents/family of origin and the one with your spouse. The way you learn to perceive, react, and relate to one absolutely bears on how you go on to perceive, react, and relate to the other. Both impact and inform the way you see yourself - particularly in relationships that feature an element of co-dependency, or in marriages that occurred in early adulthood (before you ever had a chance to identify an independent sense of self).

I agree with you that this is something you should explore, but do yourself a favour and do it for you, not for your wife. I'm not saying ignore how how it impacts her, just to focus on YOUR lens first before you think of hers.

Although WW and her AP had no particular song as their romantic, sentimental special piece of music, as far as I know; there are a plethora of songs from the decade in which her affair took place which always seem to thrust me back on my heels and send me into a triggered spiral of pain and anguish. I can't bear to hear " Woman,(Do you have cheating on your mind?)" by Gary Puckett and Union Gap, "Behind closed doors" by Charlie Rich puts in a tailspin, " Dark end of the street" by James Carr, " Cry to me" by Solomon Burke, " You can have my husband, but don't mess with my man" by Irma Thomas, there's an inexhaustible quantity of songs that involve infidelity that curl my toes,And yes, I was about to say even in, but really especially in, high art classical music, it's a prevailing theme. The sheer emotional agony of Tosca when in Puccini s opera of the same name, sings of her loss and betrayal at the hands of Scarpia tear at my heart. Since time immemorial betrayal has afflicted marriages, Ovid wrote of the pain of love lost " In Amores" where he declares " Be tough, be patient, someday this pain will be of use to you"..Dolor hic tibi proderit olim. I try to follow this advice, but it sure is difficult at times.

I wondered why my ears were ringing the past couple days

What got me to say you should consider whether you were codependent, more than anything else, is how vociferously you defend your WW on here. You must have some sort of record for this--I don't think I've seen anyone else on here be such an apologist for their WW. This despite the fact that your WW's actions wouldn't win awards on here. I think a lot of people would be twisted by their emotions into staying but I don't know of how many people in your situation would be talking about how hard it is for a WW to confess after THEY (the BHs that is) were the ones who suffered another twist of the knife in the gut. Yes you feel and acknowledge your own pain at the same time, but still...

I'd say your WW having to open up and have the light shone on her treachery, is simply CONSEQUENCES for her actions, while the pain is MUCH harder for YOU than her.

And even still, just because your WW has "shame" about being an adultress and a cheater, that does not mean she views OM with revulsion or that she is remorseful for hurting YOU or your family.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 3:32 PM, Friday, November 17th]

Vocation

Did they ever do an opera of Euripides’ Medea?

The crazy making pain just drips from that play?

I don't mean to be Sadsack Sally but unless your frontal lobe isn't full formed who on earth sits around ruminating about their soul mate whilst listening to songs written by 20 year olds.
Cringey, as the youngins would say.

What got me to say you should consider whether you were codependent, more than anything else, is how vociferously you defend your WW on here. You must have some sort of record for this--I don't think I've seen anyone else on here be such an apologist for their WW.

Ever consider my need to defend her is proportionate to the number of attacks?

I could certainly come on this forum and spew vile about my wife, but to what end? Earlier in this journey I’m sure I did at times and it probably helped to give me an outlet. But dude, I’m not making stuff up. She’s changing. Think back a year and she was coming at me with intense defensiveness and anger. It’s all gone, every bit of it. She is soft and gentle and owning that she hurt me to the core. You guys magnify her imperfections, and that’s ok, you have what I give you to work with and you are watching my back, I love you for it. You are just going to have to take my word for it, she’s growing and it’s pretty beautiful to watch from my vantage point. I know the danger is me settling for bread crumbs, but I don’t see us on that trajectory at this point.

STRAIGHTUP.... Thank you for reminding me of Eurpides' play Medea. Quite stunning in its theme of blinding pain and awful vengeance after Medea, wife of Jason ( who used her prophetic skills and what we would call sixth sense to help Jason in his quest for the Golden Fleece" discovers that Jason has betrayed her in favor of Glauce daughter of Creon.In an all consuming ferocious rage she takes a sword and slays her husband's lover and her own two children: A theme not unfamiliar to American tv news .audiences, film at ten.
Corneille the French playright wrote an adaptation of the Euripides play, titled " Medes" which was turned into an opera by Cherubiniin the late 1700s This in turn has been revived in various guises, and I think a version of the opera was performed at the Met in 2022 if I'm not mistaken. I have not seen a performance of the play or opera, but I am familiar with the original Greek play from the misery of having to do Greek with Latin at my UK boarding school over sixty years ago.
I understand the desire to hurt the sum bag AP, yet methinks Media could have benefitted from some better IC.
One last thing, to hear the sheer anguished cry of pain of betrayal in a human voice, nothing comes close in my mind to "Vissi d'arte" aria from Tosca as performed by Angela Gheorghiu

Another option besides Co-dependency is trauma bonded. The symptoms are close, so it could be another option.

ETA: In topic for anthems...My XWH and AP did carpool karaoke. Don't know what they sang, and music was tough for awhile.

[This message edited by leafields at 4:17 AM, Saturday, November 18th]

September by EWF cuts me deep.
The first line of the song talks about the 21st night.
WW’s AP’s birthday is Sept 21. She mentioned the song to him, then wished him Happy Birthday every year for almost a decade.
When I was in investigative mode, I found a password protected social media app that she used to communicate with him on her phone. Guess what the password was?

Ever consider my need to defend her is proportionate to the number of attacks?

What you think your WW is the only WW I've come down hard here

Even when your WW was hard and defensive, you were still defending her quite a bit on here though.

In any event....whatever harsh things I have said about your WW or your approach, I truly do hope to be proven wrong!

The problem I had with revenge was that I couldn't figure out a way to hurt my W or ap without risking adding to my own pain. Medea got revenge, OK, but what did she gain?

Did Medea originate the deus ex machina ending? I have a vague memory that it did.

Another option besides Co-dependency is trauma bonded.

"You’re not going to believe this, but ANOTHER internet stranger told me….."

This one seems to strike closer to the heart. She and I are figuring out that both of us were highly traumatized as we met and fell in love and got married. We’ve screwed around with all kinds of unhealth for 20 years. How could there not be something like this for us? So then even if that is true, now what? I need to realize it and wake up and leave? Or she does? Or we need to see it and heal it?

Every book on relationships seems to have some description of these self sustaining destructive cycles, each has a different name and slightly different dynamics, but the same underlying message: play stupid games, win stupid prizes. Both she and I want to stop the stupid games.

Also, I have decided for myself that I am going to continue to rock out to The Outfield, no matter what any of you say. That is all.

Oh man, I saw The Outfield in 1986. During their set, the Roadies didn't secure the lights above them and 3 or 4 of their Stage Lights came crashing down while they were playing. Initially people thought it was part of the show until the music stopped and the swearing began on the microphones.

How could there not be something like this for us? So then even if that is true, now what? I need to realize it and wake up and leave? Or she does? Or we need to see it and heal it?

I don’t know a single person that doesn’t have some sort of baggage. There is no perfect in this world and no one has all of their shit together.

I don’t even know how much labels matter, but what does matter is understanding your patterns and dynamics. You need to examine them and then decide together what works and what doesn’t.

My husband and I had codependent tendencies for certain. What we focused on though were very specific dynamics that needed work. For example, when he was trying to tell me something uncomfortable I would start crying. His KISA would kick in, want to comfort me and we would never get to the point that we had deep important conversation. Me crying wasn’t a conscious decision or manipulation, it was more reactionary and defensiveness. I had to learn to work through it and he had to learn to keep going.

It’s just one example, but we had a few like this that we now more naturally get through because of our awareness of them. You need to be aware and understand those patterns in order to break them.

I think some people are unwilling to work through that. I don’t think you are one of them and it sounds like your wife is trying. I’ve said it before and I will keep saying it…only the two of you can decide if or when the changes that have been made are enough.

Just really struggling today, friends. Had an MC session yesterday, used it to delve into the sexting element of the A. There was nothing particularly mind blowing to me, probably a situation where my imagination was worse than the story she told me. But I still just feel dragged into the emotional sewer. I don’t have much left on my question list, thank God. I hate this.

{{hugs}}

This sh!t is hard. Practice some self-care.