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You've made a lot of progress in terms of advocating for yourself and your needs, InkHulk. The problem is that your wife still wants the reconciliation to happen on her terms; she will find any excuse--Gottman or otherwise--to avoid the honesty and transparency that you insist upon. I think she's hoping that if she drops crumbs, you'll think she's trying... even if the full meal never comes.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 8:18 PM, Monday, November 13th]

Alright I will answer this question directly: You'd be on the road to clarity if at least....She WILLINGLY ANSWERS YOUR QUESTIONS, WHEN ASKED BY YOU. I suppose that it isn't 'foolproof' per se--there could be something she wouldn't answer you just haven't found that question yet--but if she were open, it would be a very good sign. I mean, if she would tell you something freely then is it really a secret.

I have a lot of answers to a lot of questions. She has answered many many questions in the last year and a half. Unfortunately she has mixed that in with lies, but it’s still true she has answered many painful and prying questions into the most shameful thing she has ever done. Dude, just stop for a second and put yourself in her place. Think of being that prodigal who has actively flushed your life down the drain and being desperate to the point of suicide if redemption is impossible. You have my permission to pity her, I do. She opened herself up to the song question in her second timeline where she willingly corrected old lies she told, she said there were other songs when previously she had only confessed to Follow Me. She’s done what you ask. The question is, when is it enough? A couple months ago BSR posted something that really hit me with respect to why she isn’t posting so much recently. It was effectively that her husband asked her to allow herself to let it go. He blessed her forgetting to move into the future. I found that fucking beautiful.

I had a talk with my wife today about songs, whether the list she gave was complete. She said it was all she could reasonably remember, that she had done some searching to find what she did and in the process got that stuff stuck in her mind. She said she didn’t want to do that anymore. I told her that if a song came on that was A related and triggered a memory that she should tell me, so that way I could interpret her silence as all is clear and not actively be on alert for every romantic song that I ever here. She agreed. That seems like a really good compromise to me.

You don't have that right now though, by your own admission. You even said yourself in your above post something about extracting knowledge from someone who doesn't want to give it. And to make it worse, you are standing up for your WW's subpar efforts.

So now we’ve moved on from truth serum to brainwashing someone to be excited about talking about the most shameful thing they have ever done? This is just much harder in practice than the simple model you preach. And I don’t in any way blame you or diminish your experience, but you didn’t try to R in your story and R is a fucking ringer. Some days it feels like trying to heal a broken leg while running a marathon. My wife’s efforts are actually pretty amazing, even if they are imperfect.

I don't know, it's not about it being hard for InkHulk's WW to confess about "Semorita" or this song or that song or whatever, of course it is hard. The question is whether she shows courage in the moment and answers InkHulk's question, instead of putting herself and her agenda first and telling him "it's not wise". WTF.

Yes people slip up but I seriously hope both InkHulk and WW realize that her "it's not wise" was simply THE WRONG thing to say.

She has John Gottman and our Gottman trained professional counselor on the side of it is not beneficial for me to get some information. I have an Internet forum and my stubborn insistence. When I put it that, can’t you see why she might not be insane to say something like that? And can we also realize that while she might have said that, she gave me the info.

Dude, just stop for a second and put yourself in her place.

Isn't that what 99% of BSs are doing most of their waking hours during R? We're trying to figure out what makes our WSs tick and why they did what they did. Your W is not a unicorn, and she's not even remotely akin to BSR. At least not right now. BSR owned her stuff. She earned the blessing of release from her H. Your W has not. Not yet.

I told her that if a song came on that was A related and triggered a memory that she should tell me, so that way I could interpret her silence as all is clear and not actively be on alert for every romantic song that I ever here. She agreed.

This is a good plan. I wonder if you believe that she'll do it. If she does, that's transparency and authenticity in action.

So now we’ve moved on from truth serum to brainwashing someone to be excited about talking about the most shameful thing they have ever done?

No one's asking your W to be excited about owning her stuff. It's not fun. It's terribly painful and embarrassing. Like rehab after that broken leg you mentioned, it's work that must be done to heal properly and it's not pleasant. But it's necessary.

She has John Gottman and our Gottman trained professional counselor on the side of it is not beneficial for me to get some information. I have an Internet forum and my stubborn insistence.

The thing is, you get to decide what information you need, regardless of what the MC, Gottman, or God himself says.

FWIW, our MC told my H to answer all of my questions. He told me to make sure I want the answers before I asked. Yeah, just another person on the internet sharing their MC's advice secondhand, but hey.

Hello InkHulk, I have never replied or made a post before. My Wife was involved in an affair early in our relationship and did not inform me until years later. Her belief, like many others was that what I didnt know would not hurt me. I dont believe any spouse, no matter how much they love them wants to be the cause of someones elses pain. I do believe that my wife was protecting me from what she did. When I found out, she did answer each question because she had processed all of the events years earlier and knew I would want to know everything. What she understood was that I did have a limit to how much I could accept. She would not volunteer any information without me asking for it. When I asked her who ended the affiar, she knew the answer was going to be the end of our marriage (He ended it, not her).
I sympathize with you and your wife. Both of you are experiencing the worst preventable tragedy I can think of. I can see alot of my wife in your wife. I had a wife that loved me, but knew she would lose me if she provided more than I asked. It wasnt until I asked the right question that she lost me.
Being afraid of losing someone that you love is noble, but also noble is making yourself vulnerable to accept that you caused this pain and the only way to heal this infection is by cleaning it with the truth. I dont think your wife should keep any secrets from you regarding her affair, on the same note, I think you should have a Full Disclosure meeting with your counselor present to support both of you with the answers. Please only ask what you want to know, but assure your wife that the answers are worth the pain you both feel. You need to be able to trust that she is telling the truth, and she needs to trust that you are asking them in good faith, not to hurt her, but to heal you. If she wants to show her love for you, she should feel compelled to stop with the lies. It has been said before, its not the infidelity that kills a marriage, its the lies. If she wants this marriage she needs to stop the lying, to herself, that she is protecting you, but also to you regarding the facts. I know that she has been forthcoming at a snails pace (paraphrasing, sorry) but if that is all you need to hang on to her, that is all she may feel she needs to comply with.
I am still Friends with my wife, she will always be special to me as the mother of my children. I love her, but I could not accept the thought that I was the runner up and that she "defaulted" to me. I pray that you and your wife can rediscover some semblance of the trust that she broke. It is not a race, but a marathon, anyone that has ran one knows how painful and exhausting it is to run one.
Please keep posting. I read her looking for the happy endings. Mine might not have had one yet, but I havent given up hope.

Hey InkHulk,

Long time listener, first time caller.

Just wanted to interrupt the litany against Mrs. InkHulk here and say that my bane anthem is Journey's "Separate Ways."

Yep, an all time classic. But for me, a reminder of how someone can have ulterior motives as they "move on."

Sorry for the interruption, carry on with our regularly scheduled program.

As long as he is fighting it I feel like I need to keep giving him time.

StillConfused, I hear you deeply. I enjoy reading your posts, you seem to be able to describe my experience in words I wouldn’t think to use. I just wanted to comment on this line. I don’t think you "need" to. Semantics maybe, and I can’t seem to convey a message well so who am I to talk, but I think it’s important to make a distinction been need and want here. Truly, we don’t need to be doing this, we can walk away at any time. You included, me included. Be well.

InkHulk, I cannot help but notice that, on here at least, you are often putting your WW's pain (e.g., having to answer tough questions related to her betrayal) before and above your own pain of actually being betrayed.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 1:43 AM, Tuesday, November 14th]

The thing is, you get to decide what information you need, regardless of what the MC, Gottman, or God himself says.

Did I mention that I’m stubborn as hell?

You've made a lot of progress in terms of advocating for yourself and your needs, InkHulk. The problem is that your wife still wants the reconciliation to happen on her terms; she will find any excuse--Gottman or otherwise--to avoid the honesty and transparency that you insist upon. I think she's hoping that if she drops crumbs, you'll think she's trying... even if the full meal never comes.

At this point, unless she is still hiding major stuff, the main course has already come in the form of her second timeline. You’ll also recall the 12 pages of written answers, tons of questions answered before then. I’ve got some things to shore up, but it’s hardly nothing my friends.

Isn't that what 99% of BSs are doing most of their waking hours during R? We're trying to figure out what makes our WSs tick and why they did what they did.

I’m not talking about figuring her out here, just keeping some compassion alive. Maybe as BS’s that is our weakness, but it’s also a fantastic part of our humanity.

Your W is not a unicorn, and she's not even remotely akin to BSR. At least not right now. BSR owned her stuff. She earned the blessing of release from her H. Your W has not. Not yet.

I’m not exactly sure what I was trying to say there except something like this place has a long fucking memory, fueled by our collective hurt, and at some point some element of forgetting, if it’s possible, is helpful. If and when the day comes that I have processed this well enough and I have judged her trustworthy enough, I will welcome letting this slide into the past.

This is a good plan. I wonder if you believe that she'll do it. If she does, that's transparency and authenticity in action.

All we can do is wait. If she does it, it will be trust building. If she doesn’t, might just mean nothing has happened. I hope she’ll do it, I’m not positive though. Cause you know, the trust thing.

When I asked her who ended the affiar, she knew the answer was going to be the end of our marriage (He ended it, not her).

Nice to hear from you. Welcome to SI, I hope you can get a lot out of this place in your healing journey.

Your comment above really struck me. I think it’s a good example of what must terrify a wayward. What is it that is too far for their BS? I can understand why that would be a deal breaker, I’m glad I didn’t have to deal with that burden. I’m really sorry that you did. But obviously I’ve had to deal with some heinous shit as well. And any of it could have been a deal breaker, and I couldn’t even tell you why it wasn’t. Again, no excuses, the wayward needs to be honest, but how terrifying when your life as you know it is on the line.

I think all waywards know we have limits. The way I explained to my wife was that she had already done enough to warrant me leaving and never speaking to her again. She showed me that she could hurt me without sharing any care for my feelings by doing such a horrible thing. Now she can show how much she cares be doing the painful act of resetting the bones of our marriage so that I can try to heal properly. In my case she did the best she could and I know she tried to help me.
I always had an inferiority complex. It drove me to work harder to prove myself. I loved her better than any man has loved a woman. Every one of her friends and family were pissed because they loved me. I gave and continue to give of myself for her family. It kills her that she could not show me that same love.
I don’t think your wife walked toward an affair like mine did. Mine was chasing the boy that broke her heart. She was a people pleaser who couldn’t stand the fact that he was no longer interested in dating her and ended up chasing him.
I am sure your wife loves you. I am also sure that she hates what she did. Much like how a wayward will never know the pain of their betrayal, a betrayed will never know the shame and loathing a wayward feels knowing they are the cause of someone’s suffering.
Even though my wife and I are no longer together, we are still very friendly. I think the chances we might have a romantic relationship again is possible. I have know her all of my adult life. If that does become something we entertain, I will treat her like a dog that bit me. I will still care for the dog but will always be wary of it doing that again.
I think you are allowed to reconcile at your pace, whether it’s faster or slower than others like. You have said you a very analytic and like to understand or know things before you decide something. It is hard to understand your wife if she doesn’t understand herself. I hope that makes sense the way I said it.
I am truly rooting for you. I’m praying for your wife to see what YOU need and give it to you, not what us random people say she needs to tell you. Please keep us informed of your families progress. It’s just as important that your kids heal alongside you (and your wife)

Long time listener, first time caller.

Just wanted to interrupt the litany against Mrs. InkHulk here and say that my bane anthem is Journey's "Separate Ways."

Yep, an all time classic. But for me, a reminder of how someone can have ulterior motives as they "move on."

I appreciate the intermission. That hurt from that song certainly jives with your profile story. Sorry, man, I really hope your life is free of this misery and you can learn enough here to shed what needs shedding and live into your beautiful now. Peace.

Back to the music for a moment...

Bryan Adams - "Run to You"

Another one that I used to love to sing along to until I realized the protagonist is a really f-ed creepy dude...

The Outfield - "Lose Your Love (I don't wanna)" *Poor Josie - I hope she divorced him and took all his money and kept that "far away" vacation going!

Barf.

[This message edited by ThisIsSoLonely at 4:42 PM, Wednesday, November 15th]

The Outfield - "Lose Your Love (I don't wanna)" *Poor Josie - I hope she divorced him and took all his money and kept that "far away" vacation going!

I am kind of mad at you right now for ruining The Outfield for me

Damnit, I really liked that song.

I am kind of mad at you right now for ruining The Outfield for me

Me too! ARGGH!

Cheater song of the year 2010 Lady A and Need You Now.

I need to pay more attention to lyrics instead of just jamming. I had no idea Josie's BF was trying for a one night stand while she was having a vacation.

[This message edited by zebra25 at 5:49 PM, Wednesday, November 15th]

@InkHulk, I have to ask this...have you talked to your IC about codependence? From your posts on here...

1. You locked onto R, even right after your DDay. And since then you seemed to have had lines in the sand and yet she blew right through them. And after all this time she is still not opening up as she should, and by your own admission she was still telling you lies even recently. And yet here you are, staying. (I don't know if I'd call you a pushover though--you do seem to be laying the law as far as banning this music or this hobby.)

2. You have even seemingly taken to also being a therapist to your WW to an extent, heloing her heal from her (supposed) FOO issues.

3. You are coming on here and talking up and defending your WW's efforts, even though it is clear that her efforts are often subpar and (reading between the lines) are not enough for you. You often even seem to be putting your WW's pain of having to disclose details about her affair, above your pain of being betrayed. (I did mention this before, on this page)

A lot of people, including many Christian denominations, seem to view the above as some sort of virtue. I don't agree with this at all!

There is no judgement for being codependent, I have had to deal with that in myself too. I do think it has you chained to a situation that will really run you dry at the end.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:03 PM, Wednesday, November 15th]