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Judging by your last response to me, isn’t it too to end this charade and see a lawyer? What are you waiting for?

Judging by your last response to me, isn’t it too to end this charade and see a lawyer? What are you waiting for?

This charade contains my life and the life of my children. And I have a first consult on Friday.

This charade contains my life and the life of my children

This short sentence sums up what was so much of my mindset throughout the last year and my interactions on here. Like making the biggest decision of your life is something that could, or even should, be rushed?

Sorry to hear things have gone downhill again IH. Sending you good vibes.

Thanks, Ozzy. Glad to hear things are looking up for you.

Inkhulk, it was not my intention to bring disdain to my post. Of course I know what your charade contains. I know it. It seems I misread your intentions regarding your marriage. I am glad that you are taking action. I am sorry that it does not seem to be working out. I will keep you in mind going forward.

No worries, Dennylast. Obviously this is all sensitive stuff with the highest stakes. Thanks for having thick skin.

Also, with all the intrigue on the thread, I want to communicate that I deeply value the perspective that each one of you brings. Truly and genuinely. HikingOut is right, it’s up to me to sort thru it, but I am so damn grateful that each of you offers up your ideas and perspectives for me to consider. You don’t have to use your time on this, I know that. And these threads get long and deep. But when I look back a year….

I’m coming up on a year ago of when I started the "Cheaters Handbook" thread. I occasionally go back and read that. I see a man’s brain on fire, life in ruins, and a community he was challenging rallying around him anyway. You guys are amazing. And while you might get tired of my patience/indecision, I have come so far in 18 months. So please believe that it isn’t wasted time.

For the record, I have no idea what the meaning of the sharing interaction (WS's b'day) is. I do know that there are several possibilities, some of which are positive for R, some for D. Maybe there are silver linings; maybe not.

I was about to write that asking is one way to find out what was going on with your W, but really, the only way to figure that out is to communicate a lot and count on that to help you figure out what you can believe and what you can't.

*****

The ideas of asking for what you want and telling someone what you want to hear do seem wrong. After all, if it's true love, shouldn't one's partner figure out what you want and need?

Few, if any, of us here are clairvoyant. We can't read each other's minds. We can read each other's non-verbals - tone of voice, word choice, posture, breathing, facial expression, congruence/incongruence of words with other signals.... My bet is that d-day is so traumatice that it ends or significantly alters the partners' abilities to read the non-verbals.

Words are needed to rebuild those abilities. Your W can't read your mind, IH. You can't read hers. If there's any hope for R, you've got to ask for what you want, and asking specifically for what you want is the best way I've seen to test another's desire to be in a relationship.

The more she talks, the quicker you'll relearn to read her non-verbals, and the learning will be at the gut level.

Asking for specific words, phrases, or sentences is even less intuitive, but it works in the same way. You ask. If she's not willing to say your words, you learn. If she says them without conviction, you learn. If she says them incongruently, you learn. Etc., etc, etc.

Try it out. It may work for you. Or don't try it out and just stick to asking fro what you want. That alone can get you all the data you need.

I think asking for what you want is a required tactic/activity in R. It's the only way to make your desires known.

*****

If you've done as much asking as you want, and you're still not getting your desired response, the ball is in your court. There probably is a 'best' thing to do, but you're more likely than anyone else to know what that is.

The ideas of asking for what you want and telling someone what you want to hear do seem wrong. After all, if it's true love, shouldn't one's partner figure out what you want and need?

Few, if any, of us here are clairvoyant. We can't read each other's minds. We can read each other's non-verbals - tone of voice, word choice, posture, breathing, facial expression, congruence/incongruence of words with other signals.... My bet is that d-day is so traumatice that it ends or significantly alters the partners' abilities to read the non-verbals.

Words are needed to rebuild those abilities. Your W can't read your mind, IH. You can't read hers.

I’m not asking for mind reading. I’ve communicated many times the things I want. I am looking for a human partner that is as dynamic as I am and able to communicate love and care spontaneously in a way that I can receive it (and she knows those ways because we’ve been together for 20 years and I’ve explicitly told her).

There is a book called Never Split the Difference, I’ve mentioned it before, but it contains mind tricks on how to get people to do what you want them to do. One is called "mirroring", you basically just repeat a person’s exact words back to them. It seems to reach in and hit the "I was validated!" part of the brain and they will just keep talking and talking and feel trust and be susceptible to the mirrorer’s influence. Try it some time, it’s really easy. Your suggestion sounds to me like I’d be giving my wife the words to mirror myself, it just doesn’t sound like a good idea to me. It’s one thing to not expect mind reading, it seems quite another to need to give our lovers the exact words to say to us. I have to respectfully disagree with you on this.

But yes, with my hopes in communication repeatedly rebuffed and me losing hope in even trying, the ball is indeed in my court.

Inkhulk

One is called "mirroring", you basically just repeat a person’s exact words back to them. It seems to reach in and hit the "I was validated!" part of the brain and they will just keep talking and talking and feel trust and be susceptible to the mirrorer’s influence. Try it some time, it’s really easy.

Along with mirroring throw in a dash of fantasy and i think we have a recipe for something truly devastating.

Along with mirroring throw in a dash of fantasy and i think we have a recipe for something truly devastating.

I have no idea what you mean by that, but it did make me smile.

InkHulk

Like once previously, I’ve held back from posting, because I am a bit too set on reconciliation, for reasons which I feel cross over with yours, like being an adult child of an alcoholic (and infidelity and divorce).

For me, if there is active infidelity again, I’m out like a rat up a drainpipe, but short of that can put up with a lot. That’s not advice I would give my kids however.

I do send you solidarity in making the best decisions you can in the circumstances.

[This message edited by straightup at 4:34 AM, Wednesday, January 31st]

For me, if there is active infidelity again, I’m out like a rat up a drainpipe, but short of that can put up with a lot. That’s not advice I would give my kids however.

Alcoholism, it’s the gift that keeps giving, isn’t it?

I want my bar to be higher than not getting cheated on again, and I would for my children as well.

Feel free to decline, but I’m going to ask you a favor. I admire your mind, and we have some pretty amazing similarities. Would you be willing to give me that advice you would save for your children but deny yourself?

1) If a BS is not getting what the BS wants, there are only 2 basic solutions: 1) leave, and 2) stay without getting (all of) what one wants - not necessarily a bad solution, but it requires being comfortable giving up something important.

2) Asking for something is very different from saying you want something. When one is told what someone wants, no action is required from the listener. When one is asked, one at least has to decide whether to do something or not, and one pretty much has to take action to communicate the decision - and the response teaches the requester something.

3) There's a difference between asking to hear certain words and mirroring someone in order to manipulate them. You've made clear that you don't want to ask for certain words. That's fine - no need to use every tool that's been suggested, but notice that difference between asking and mirroring.

Asking for something is very different from saying you want something. When one is told what someone wants, no action is required from the listener. When one is asked, one at least has to decide whether to do something or not, and one pretty much has to take action to communicate the decision - and the response teaches the requester something.

This is a fairly fine distinction in my mind. I guess when our kids draw up their Christmas lists it communicates what they want, as opposed to asking us for the things. I can see that. In this context, if my wife is struggling making the connection that she should act on my list of wants if she genuinely wants the marriage, it seems hopeless. Me going those next steps to spoon feed her task level actions, that just seems pedantic to me (no offense meant to you, Sisoon). This to me is where the idea of "she figured out how to have an affair, she should figure this out". She didn’t need a checklist of how to get into this affair, she figured out how to enthusiastically meet his needs and get her own met too. Why would I "program" her to meet mine? It just seems like a joyless, non-personal relationship, like I’d just be training her to be a part of me. Sounds narcissistic (again, no offense intended to you Sisoon). If I’m going to stay married to her, I want a woman who can love me out of her own creative heart. I’m looking for signs of that. Handing her a set of directions of how to exactly do and say what would be good to me seems like it would just fool myself. How would I assess whether this is authentic? You yourself locked in on the importance of authenticity in R. Her reading from a script of my writing seems like the complete opposite of authenticity.

Sisoon, I admire you greatly as well. I’m arguing here because I think you can take it and because when someone that I deeply admire says something (even twice) that doesn’t make sense to me, I assume that there is something to be learned and for me to really get at it is going to take some words and back and forth. So I’m trying to honor you here by really wrestling with what you are saying here and giving my honest responses. Most others I would have just ignored this suggestion.

Edit to add: I do hear you that her response is a chance to learn. Maybe she refuses to even say my words, and I learn something there. But she is also a practiced liar. How could I trust if she did say my script back to me that it was authentic and not her happily receiving a way to pacify me for a while longer?

[This message edited by InkHulk at 4:52 PM, Wednesday, January 31st]

I in no way mean to insinuate this is happening in your marriage, but I want to share what happened in mine that offers a different perspective. For a good two years after D Day I’d say things like "you managed to make her happy, why can’t you make me happy? Why can’t you do that for me? Why can’t you say these things to me? Why can’t you show me you love me so I believe you?" His response was finally, because this is me. Yes, I figured HER out, how to keep her happy and quiet through inauthenticity and lies. Is that what you want? Me being someone I am not? Then he went on to list things he does and says to me that he sees as acts of love and devotion. Things he never did for her. Things I never really considered as a big deal, but they were to him. He explained why he does and says them and what the sentiment is behind them. Part of us learning to love each other fully was accepting our differences. I asked myself do I want HIS love, do I want a programmed version he spits back to me when I tell him what I expect, or do I want to search for a man that speaks the same love language as I do? Any of those decisions would have been appropriate. For reasons that are personal and entirely my own I chose to accept his love communication and he chose to accept mine. For me, it felt warm to let go of my expectations of what he should do to show his love and instead accept and believe in how he expresses it. It was more authentic than the few times he attempted to be something for me that he is not. Early on in reconciliation I expected this lying cheating man to become something he wasn’t . Healing and "doing the work" for me, means learning to live with honesty, Integrity, and authenticity. Other, than that, he is the same man I chose to marry. The same one that made me laugh, was a great companion, father, and lover.

Hang in there IH. Anyone walking this walk deserves a medal… you got this!

OTOSOH, I don’t have time to respond to that right now, cause I’m going to have to read it about 10 times to really do it justice. But that is rich and deep and really has me thinking. Thank you, that was a gift.

OTOSOH,
I needed to hear that today. Thank you.

She didn’t need a checklist of how to get into this affair, she figured out how to enthusiastically meet his needs and get her own met too. Why would I "program" her to meet mine? It just seems like a joyless, non-personal relationship, like I’d just be training her to be a part of me. Sounds narcissistic (again, no offense intended to you Sisoon). If I’m going to stay married to her, I want a woman who can love me out of her own creative heart. I’m looking for signs of that. Handing her a set of directions of how to exactly do and say what would be good to me seems like it would just fool myself. How would I assess whether this is authentic? You yourself locked in on the importance of authenticity in R. Her reading from a script of my writing seems like the complete opposite of authenticity.

Friend, I agree 100% on this. Especially since, as HellFire already noted, your WW had no problem being that great loving trusting partner in her affair.

My takes on here are based on what I would want and what I would want for my loved ones. The stronger or more emotional my tone the more I think someone would be railroaded if they stayed. Would I want to be stuck in a marriage such as this. Hell No, this woman will suck you dry!

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 8:45 PM, Wednesday, January 31st]