SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Not at all. I’m honestly oblivious to what you might be referring to. Exactly zero offense from OG to IH. Feel free to PM me if you want to clarify.

Okay, good. Thank you. I would PM you, but your PMs are either full or turned off.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 10:45 PM, Wednesday, February 7th]

The concept of authenticity is amazing to me, and, in my brain, it ties in to a previous topic in this thread that revolved around altruism.Here's an admittedly "small potatoes" example from my life:

My wife loves to watch the TV show Real Housewives of "X". For me it's triggering. In my head, I see nothing but people yelling and screaming over each other, which takes me back to childhood trauma created by my parents' constant bickering. I've had a fair amount of therapy to deal with this issue, and I can realize that that these screaming people on TV have fuckall to do with my parents and the problems I've dealt with as a result of their actions. As a result, I can join in with my wife and participate in a shared joy of determining which wife is the least asshole! Is that authentic?

I mean I'm not doing it for me entirely. It takes some work on my end to deal with the unrelated triggers, and if it were me alone, I'd be watching football! (Where another form of contention occurs :)) But I'm invested in my wife's well-being, and my participation in her joys make us feel closer, which is important to me. So yeah, authentic maybe but not altogether altruistic.

I have deeply internalized the message that kindness leads to repentance and forgiveness grows love

I know where you’re pulling that from, and it warms my heart you do. Since we cannot discuss that source directly without offending others, I will only say this: while we are in fact called to lead with kindness, we are in no way guaranteed our kindness to one who wronged us WILL lead to repentance in them. True repentance is a gift given from above - and one that is not always given.

I hope you sleep soundly, at least from the perspective that absolutely the entire world can see you’ve bent over backwards for her countless times, after so many betrayals, and you’ve had the patience of Job. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen anyone who’s put more effort into (dragging?) their WS thru R. You’ve done absolutely everything imaginable to save your M.

Sleep in peace my friend.

This has been a very thoughtful thread.

I am hoping your struggle finds you an answer, InkHulk.

The only thing I have to offer is something my therapist said to me when I was struggling with wanting something "more" from my husband. I was stuck. Just in a place where I was angry with him for just not seeming to see what I needed and wanted.

She first pointed out that, while I had complained about this, from what she could tell I had not really communicated my thoughts to him. I had the conversations with him in my own head, but not with him at all. She was right, because I was doing the struggling mentally, it felt as though he "should have known" what was happening in my mind. I hadn’t been openly expressing myself, and when I did talk with him I wasn’t thorough or completely honest, because I was trying to protect the marriage, what I thought was left of it, and what was left of me. I was guilty of what I was accusing him of, and what he was actually doing, once we talked it through, for many of the same reasons I was doing it. We had many of the same fears. And we both could not just open up because we didn’t want to make things worse than they already were.

But the thing she hit me with that really got to me was this - I wanted from him the very thing I was withholding from him.

I’m not going to say what I was withholding, because it’s not important here. The point is, that it’s true about most things in marriage. If I want kindness, I have to give it. Same with honesty, authenticity, help with chores, sex…. I am going to get what I give.

Even if I don’t want it very much.

I know this is weighing so heavily on you, and this struggle has been very long. You have been dragging her through recovery because you want very much to fight for this marriage, and you are doing that. I hope you succeed. I’m in your corner, cheering you on, for your best outcome, whatever you decide.

[This message edited by 5Decades at 1:20 AM, Thursday, February 8th]

On the other hand, she did have all the room in the world prior to this and wasn’t taking the opportunity. I trust what you are seeing, but am a bit confused by other things like her wanting to work on the marriage when given ihs or divorce as the option. Is she reliant on you for finances? Is it the kids? Do you have any gut reaction for that???

I think that there is an element of the wrong that I confessed/uncovered that prompted her confession of the A. I think that has always been a complicating matter. I perceive that she has kept that in her mind as some kind of counterbalance. And I could go into some things there, I choose not to, but enough to say that I do not believe that the magnitudes are very close and it had aged for years, even prior to start of the A. She had had plenty of time to bring it up in our life together.

The more I think about things, the less I seem to understand her. Yes, I’m by far the breadwinner, and she stands to lose half the time with her kids. I still think she wants me, I think, but there is absolutely none of the wooing. And I would not be that hard to woo.

I mean I'm not doing it for me entirely. It takes some work on my end to deal with the unrelated triggers, and if it were me alone, I'd be watching football! (Where another form of contention occurs :)) But I'm invested in my wife's well-being, and my participation in her joys make us feel closer, which is important to me. So yeah, authentic maybe but not altogether altruistic.

I think this is well said and a good illustration of how cooperative this stuff needs to be to sustain a relationship. And why I’m so frustrated by the lack of it coming from my wife that stabbed me in the back.

while we are in fact called to lead with kindness, we are in no way guaranteed our kindness to one who wronged us WILL lead to repentance in them.

I agree, I just really wanted it to come thru this time. Maybe if I had sworn less…

If I want kindness, I have to give it. Same with honesty, authenticity, help with chores, sex…. I am going to get what I give.

I’ll just say that I think the principle above is valid and good, and it doesn’t work in my marriage. I’ve expressed what I want, and I’ve been either ignored or flat told no. Not to mention lied to. We’ve gone to sex therapy where I was told to do more chores around the house while my wife was sitting next to me concealing sexual trauma and an affair. There are bigger issues at play here. I’m glad to hear you were able to make helpful progress with that idea though. Thanks for commenting and the kind words.

Okay, good. Thank you. I would PM you, but your PMs are either full or turned off.

I did clean out my PM box, I didn’t realize that was a thing. Just fyi, it’s also cool if the topic is closed.

For the record, a 'platinum' membership doubles the number of PMs members can keep around. Just sayin'....

Donations are tax-deductible charitable contributions in the eyes of US's Internal Revenue Service.

Thanks, IH. PM sent.

perceive that she has kept that in her mind as some kind of counterbalance. And I could go into some things there, I choose not to, but enough to say that I do not believe that the magnitudes are very close and it had aged for years, even prior to start of the A.

So she does not believe she owes a debt, basically. She sees it as you are even. I have a hard time seeing how a three year affair could be equal to anything, but I do understand transactional/lack of accountability.

There were a few things that happened early in our relationship that I think I was holding unconscious resentment over, in addition to things that accumulated throughout the marriage.. I don’t think I consciously was punishing him for the resentment. I think I was a very unhappy person at the start of my affair and something needed to change. My lack of accountability on doing the work to make the change led to all sorts of finger pointing. I couldn’t see that I created it. Being happy is an inside job.

I will say that when I went to IC (willingly, on my own between when the affair ended to the point I confessed) I didn’t even think to bring up past sexual abuse. The therapist stumbled on that, and I didn’t relate it to anything going on. She asked me one day if it was in my history and I paused, and said "oh yeah..well this happened, and this" and I didn’t just have one instance or just one abuser. But I felt like it was ancient history and that I had already dealt with it. We carry the shame of what someone else should have been ashamed of and it becomes like a dark secret that we have to push down to the depth of our soul.

I later learned it was tied to so much in my life that I didn’t even relate. So while that might seem like to you non-active participation in sex therapy, it would surprise me that it being held in the vault had any bad intent. I personally had just suppressed it and trained myself to put it in a box and that was how I "dealt" with it. I never related the ways it effected my sexuality.

I am not at all trying to diffuse your anger. I think it’s super healthy you have finally formed some boundaries and a lot of times it does take that cloak of anger to finally learn to protect oneself.

But let me ask you this - are you expecting her to try to woo you during ihs? And the fact she isn’t crossing your boundary to show you something is adding to the daily accumulation of anger and hopelessness? Are you wanting her to make something happen to end the ihs?

[This message edited by hikingout at 5:24 PM, Thursday, February 8th]

But let me ask you this - are you expecting her to try to woo you during ihs? And the fact she isn’t crossing your boundary to show you something is adding to the daily accumulation of anger and hopelessness? Are you wanting her to make something happen to end the ihs?

I was primarily referring to the last 18 months with my wooing comments. I am going to respectfully decline to answer this question, due to the possibility (though I think it’s unlikely) that she is reading this. I’m not trying to play games, but I don’t want to have any doubts at all that the behavior I see from her is authentically her. I do not wish to cross contaminate the source by stating any wishes I have here. And I also don’t see how stating any of my wishes really advances our conversation. I’m not upset with you asking, just to be perfectly clear.

I don’t need for it to advance our conversation.

everything I ask or say is to let you have an opportunity to have you evaluate something. You don’t have to tell me squat. I am just giving you different perspectives and leaving it to you on what sticks.

The reason I am pressing is IHS really isn’t a tool for reconciliation. It’s a space in which two people work on themselves. My observation of you is that the longer this has gone on the more hopeless you have become which tells me a lot of the focus is still on the outcome of the marriage. I am not condemning you or even suggesting that’s not normal.

What I am suggesting is if you are doing this to have her swoop in or to make her see something. Push to a resolution but telling her that you want time to detach and hoping she will cross that boundary, I think that is a recipe for disaster. I only listened to hellfire and made the grand gesture because I knew there was no way she would be telling me to do that if she thought it was disrespectful to my husband. She is definitely way more of a bs advocate and for good reason. I felt strongly that I had disrespected him enough, and I was going to give him all his terms on the divorce (we own a substantial amount of real estate and I was going to sign it all away that’s how strongly I felt about not disrespecting him any further) and if he wanted space then he should have it. I knew I didn’t deserve him after all I had done. (I am not saying your wife feels this way and I do think she has had a chance to prove something to you before now)

I think if you are seeing this as evidence of something more that might not be helpful to you. You have spent so much time reading into the situation that some of it of course looks sour.

Now that is completely separate as to whether she deserves a shot at reconciliation. The only thing you can control is you.

All I am suggesting is that it seems like you are in a constant struggle to decide something, you are still watching and waiting for her.

If you are going to take the space for you, then do that. But really focus on detachment. My interval exercises I didn’t invent them, I got them from other bs here over the time I have been here.

I think it’s revealing that suddenly you are worried she will read what you really want. But you have been convinced she isn’t reading. And you say you have been asking for what you want. I am not saying none of that is true, I am just point at a few loopholes here that maybe you can evaluate.

And to be clear, I know this is the corner in which you have been pushed. I am in no way suggesting you are wrong or any of this is sinister. I am more questioning if this arrangement is really giving you what you want to not. And that’s not to push you in any direction, more just wanting you to find a path to healing rather than you prolonging your own misery, while probably sending mixed signals to someone who doesn’t do it when you state clearly what you want.

Earlier in the thread you mentioned you thought it was people pleasing. And I almost argued that at the time but I didn’t want to detract you from doing IHS if that’s what you wanted. And I am all for it if that’s still what you want, but want you to think more clearly about setting better boundaries.

This is kind of thing is what I am talking about - you can logically learn something (like setting boundaries) but flounder in how you implement what you are learning. She is doing a lot of the same I suspect. You are not used to setting them with her so you go into ihs. She is not used to being authentic so she goes into being inflexible with that. You are both reading what you want from that.

This is why I suggested you might benefit from going into MC for a session or two to discuss the terms of ihs and set goals of it. And then focus on the progress of those goals. But now you have gone into ihs and you are trying to force yourself towards a decision while watching what she is doing in a place where you have asked for space.

It might be you are ready for the divorce and this is a soft place for you to start. But I think that it’s a last ditch effort to get a reaction but that is very unclear to her. I am not telling you that things have to be fair, obviously she has ignored fair for a long time. But sometimes we do things subconsciously that doesn’t serve us and I am just giving you fodder to evaluate that. No explanation needed.

If I am understanding correctly HikingOut seems to be suggesting that hoping your wife wakes up and woos you in ways you have asked for previously might not be what she thinks you want NOW. I know had my husband tried to woo me after I’d asked for space I’d have been furious with him. I would have seen it as he crossing a boundary I instated and that his efforts were out of fear of losing me rather than authentic feelings for me. But, if I am being honest part of me was angry that he wasn’t fighting for me after I told him to back off. Emotions can really mess with logic. I am sure at those times my husband was damned if he did and damned if he didn’t. 😬🤷‍♀️ and I feel no regret for that. It was part of the consequences of his choices making me a sad crazy lady. 🤷‍♀️ Apologies to HikingOut if I interpreted her post wrong and to IH if he finds this irrelevant to his situation.

I know had my husband tried to woo me after I’d asked for space I’d have been furious with him

That was definitely my fear at the time. I didn’t eat to do something that pushed a decision because I wanted to reconcile. I was also preparing for the idea that we were getting a divorce. I felt my chances were entirely over.

Now, that is a lot of projection, your wife is completely a separate person. So my conjecture about this was to only consider if your plan was serving you or not.if it is, great. We don’t know her. But we somewhat know you. No one here controls her, but you get to control you.

So yes that was some of what I am saying but what I am more saying, is decide what YOU want out of IHS, and pursue that. Watching and waiting for her in it could be creating mixed signals for both of you.

I know you are hurting IH and my goal is for you to do as little of that as possible. There is no way through without pain other than healing for yourself. To me that should be the focus of what ihs is about, otherwise it’s as messy as it was before. You need to put some of the mess on her and focus on you. But if you are expecting unsolicited grand gestures, I think that would be a rare event if the ws is trying to respect what you have asked for. You seemed to think she wasn’t reading here out of respect for you. I think that is consistent behavior.

I fully understand the catch 22 that my wife would be in from this. I have no sympathy for it, but I understand it. I hear all the thoughts about should I/shouldn’t I, wooing vs boundaries. I have no interest in even having a chance at short circuiting that puzzle in my wife’s mind. Call that whatever you want, it’s hers to wrestle with.

I am doing this because I want to minimize my immediate pain and I wasn’t mentally prepared to file for divorce. That’s all I’ve got for you guys. I am just coming out of more EMDR. I’m doing things for me, and not fighting with her or being disappointed by her is in itself doing me good. I can see that having this decision of R/D constantly weighing on me is not super helpful to personal healing, but I don’t know what to do about that. I’m a shitty compartmentalizer and it fills up my minds eye.

I hear you. As long as it’s all been considered, that’s completely legitimate.

I’ve been thinking about how a few people have said they are backing away from commenting, with a few different reasons, all of them having merit. I will say that I value a wide range of perspectives in this thing. I’m all ears for the hard earned lessons of those who have walked a path similar to mine, and I enjoy hearing confirmatory messages from people who share my religious convictions. But everyone out there has a unique and valuable frame of reference. WBFA, you recently called out codependency in me. I didn’t see it immediately, but it planted a seed and that has been a profitable area for me to learn about myself and grow.

So all that to say, I’d prefer if you guys say what is on your minds. If I disagree, I’ll let you know. If you piss me off, I will also let you know and I’ll get over it. You guys are collectively a treasure and I’d be honored to keep hearing from as many want to contribute.

So I’m going to try to put this decision to the back of my mind for a little while and give self healing some time for both of us. That was the idea when I called IHS anyway. For my part, I think it’s healthy for me, and I’m guessing that the EMDR I’m doing is kicking up some serious dust that makes me question the wisdom of making a life altering decision in the middle of it. I plan to continue to work with this lawyer to plan for the eventuality of a divorce, I think that is healthy for me.

For her part, she is also going thru EMDR, just started this week. She reported some impactful interactions in it with her fear of her father’s anger.

As long as she won’t bend to what I’m asking for in relationship work, I’m not investing in the relationship. But with my need to believe that I’ve done everything reasonable to save this thing (and I need that for myself), then this is a low cost commitment for me. If it makes no difference in a few months of this (and it’s going to take that long for both of us to process what we’ve each identified and then a little time to evaluate from there) then I’ve got an exit plan.

She invited me to walk and talk last night. I accepted, and it was good. She shared, she listened, no defensiveness, good vulnerability from both of us. Guys, I’m a cheap date, that’s like all I need to move me. I came up with a list of things she can do for me in this time:

Talk to me
Listen to me
Be brave
Be respectful

I can find peace with those things in place for now, pretty sure. Now I’m just hoping I can be a slightly less shitty (but not TOO good) of a compartmentalizer and just live life for a few months.