SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

WTR,

The fact the you are here and asking this question of us and yourself, is encouraging. It shows that you see the problem, you recognize it as a problem, and are not afraid to face it.

Fear of facing your flaws, mistakes and weaknesses, I believe leads to defensiveness.

My ExWW’s defensiveness killed our reconciliation-outright. I would attribute her defensiveness, and the root causes of her defensiveness, as THE lead factor, that not only killed our reconciliation, but also predisposed her to cheating in the first place.

Humility is such a strength. Have you ever noticed how we all gravitate towards those who are humble, and the endearing quality of self deprecating humor. We all prefer listeners over talkers. Humility leads to: personal growth, stronger teamwork, better problem solving, empathy, stronger relationships, etc.

Humility allows you to boldly and honestly look at your silly ass self, without contempt, judgment or fear. It allows you, and others, to be human. It allows you to own your mistakes and objectively correct or adapt to your flaws.

This is just a theory of mine, but it seems many of the contributing factors of defensiveness, or symptoms of defensiveness, are also contributing factors to infidelity: low self esteem, insecurity, childhood trauma, fear of rejection, learned behaviors, inability to honestly introspect, obstacle to emotional intimacy, obstacle to accountability and the control of manipulative behaviors.

If you don’t get a handle on your defensiveness and what causes you to be defensive, your R will greatly suffer.

As I said, the fact that you’re here, see this, recognize it as a problem is very encouraging. My ExWW didn’t make it that far. She just couldn’t wrap her mind around the concept for whatever reasons. This sucks for her because humility also leads to self forgiveness.

[This message edited by RealityBlows at 8:39 PM, Saturday, September 21st]

I am also not religious and have been trying to separate my worth from particular outcomes. Not because I don't want them or because they aren't important, but because, like people have said, that thinking puts me in a fear response and does not help me be kind or helpful and ultimately takes me further from those outcomes. It is an illusion of control that makes us try to control things in destructive ways.

Steps two and three in a twelve step program (SLAA), the Radical Acceptance DBT skill, and the book Radical Acceptance by Tara Brach, have helped with seeing this from a more secular perspective, but it is something I have to try to come back to several times every day. I've written a version of the third step prayer that works with my belief system and I've been trying to think it to myself each morning.

I have only looked at it a little, but maybe also try looking at the concept of acting "as if" regarding a higher power.

Pleasebeflexable, thank you and that makes sense and is very helpful. And thank you RealityBlows, I struggle greatly with humility and entitlement, and is a major weakness of mine and contributing factor to my terrible actions, and certainly to my defensiveness.

Your defensiveness is a wall your betrayed spouse does not have the energy to climb. All she/he wants to do is climb back to you. Do not make the climb impossible because of your ego.

Mysoltice,

That is so very true. Well said.

When you lower your defenses and allow your spouse in, it’s incredibly intimate. When you make yourself vulnerable to your spouse, trusting them with your deepest secrets, and uncomfortable truths, it takes your relationship leagues to new depths. It’s incredibly bonding. Trust begets trust. Her trusting you begins with you trusting her.

yet I am struggling with how to come up with a sturdy salvation plan

What about this for a start - most people aren't conscious of what their salvation plan is/what they believe makes them worthwhile. They are acting on it without understanding, without reflection or intention. It couldn't hurt to be intentional rather than reflexive. What is something that you believe would make you a worthwhile person? What about - I am worthwhile because I'm making progress toward listening to other people in a way that makes them feel heard and seen? I am worthwhile because I am making progress toward being less defensive? I am worthwhile because I'm doing things that I know are wise even though they feel frightening or counterintuitive? Bonus points for writing down things that you have already accomplished that you can look at when you need fortifying - staying with your wife and family, having a job, etc. What do you believe would make you a worthwhile person?

without Jesus

I understand the hesitation. I wasn't Christian before coming to SI. And I wasn't drawn to religion per se. I saw the wisdom, peace, self-love, compassion, and humor in Maia, and I thought "I want what she's got!" And then I pestered her! That woman endured hours of my questions. Thank goodness it was religion and not mushrooms or riding wild horses or some kind of nonsense, I would have done whatever she said to get what I saw in her.

Can I interest you in Generic Creator Deity? Or are you totally atheistically certain that you are an accident of atoms? The good thing about Generic Creator Deity is that it gives you a direction to pray. Then Generic Creator Deity can start working in you. Prayer is powerful! I've had some extraordinary unexplainable answers to prayer. Yours can be quite simple. When you need to get out of your head, use the "Wow" prayer and meditate on something beautiful in creation. When you need help, when you are tempted to be defensive, just say quietly "help me, help me, please help me." Then see what happens.

Also, read Wild at Heart by John Eldredge. He's good with men who have put up defenses.

What I found helped was letting go of the outcome. Discussing divorce calmly, crying about it then accepting the idea of a divorce. After that, you can then open up fully, with the idea that your partner may or may not divorce you and you no longer can stop it if it's what they choose based on what they see.

Once you fully accept the divorce fully, as a possible - or better, probable - reality, you no longer try to hide and defend yourself because you accept that all may be lost anyway. So you might as well expose yourself and let them see you and stop protecting because there's nothing left to try to save. I don't know if that's clear! But it helped me.

First of all, you realizing what you are doing and how this may be further causing hurt to your BS, is a great first step.

Unfortunately, it took me a long time to stop being defensive and the worst of all is that I thought they were legitimate "answers", until one day, during a big argument between me and my BS it came to me like an epiphany that what I was doing was indeed being defensive and I was not listening as actively and empathetically as I could and should, but rather to answer. I guess, seeing him in all this pain is what finally made me wake up and realize how wrong, super hurtful and unfair my behavior towards him was and that the last thing I wanted was to cause him more pain.

What I would advise you is, whenever they speak about their pain, try to always have in mind that you need to actively listen to them, really listen - not listen to give an answer back - until it becomes a habit, the norm. Also, knowing how much it hurts them when you have this kind of behavior is another powerful way to keep you from acting in a way that only seemingly protects you but tears them and any chance of R further apart. Try to connect with the love you feel for them and with the pain they feel, which they never asked for to begin with.

It might not come natural at first and it might take practice, but you can get there.

Pippin,

Sorry for the non-response. I continue to struggle with how to use the board and everyone's advice and input...I am clearly still choosing cowardice and defensive protection of my ego.

You wrote, "What is something that you believe would make you a worthwhile person? What about - I am worthwhile because I'm making progress toward listening to other people in a way that makes them feel heard and seen? I am worthwhile because I am making progress toward being less defensive? I am worthwhile because I'm doing things that I know are wise even though they feel frightening or counterintuitive? Bonus points for writing down things that you have already accomplished that you can look at when you need fortifying - staying with your wife and family, having a job, etc. What do you believe would make you a worthwhile person?"

I continue to use shame as my driving emotion and choosing either fight or flight defense mechanisms instead of being open and vulnerable. I keep choosing me over my betrayed spouse, and in doing so I have not moved the needle one bit.

I don't know the answer to your question, "what would make me a worthwhile person?" Every time I think of anything the chain I have forged with all my choices reminds me that I am in fact an asshole and not worthy of her, my great kids, the image other see of me because they don't know the truth about choices I have made or kind of selfish narcassist I really am. Only my betrayed spouse truly knows who I am and she sees me for who and what I am, and I cannot hang my hat on partial credit that I try and give myself like you elude to above.

Even all this comes across as smarmy word salad that isn't really change.

Mage,
Thank you. I sill THINK defensively, even when keeping my mouth shut. She can see it in my expressions and body language, and then I chose to turn thoughts of shame into frustration and frustration into defensive responses. How do get to a place where I am not choosing to think defensively? Yes I control my thoughts, and I try and listen with empathy and from a position of no authority or right because it is me who did all this. Yet I wallow and have a pity party for woe is me feeling bad about myself for my choices and actions, or for being "yelled at" like I am some child, and shut down on being a kind, empathetic listener to her and her pain..

Any advice from anyone on how to change my thoughts away from my selfish shame wallowing is very apricated.

I don't know if it would be helpful for you at all, but I recently completed my fourth step moral inventory for S.L.A.A. For this step, you look at the resentments you've had throughout your life, starting at childhood, and explain your role in them. You write down your character defects involved in your role and in the way you see the situation. Some of my repeating ones were victim mentality and unwillingness to accept the other person is a child of God and perhaps spiritually sick like me (this doesn't have to be a religious thing--it can just be about seeing the person as human and suffering like all humans do). It has helped me some in new interactions to consider my role, character defects, and how they affect my perception of things.