SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Truly, no worries and no apology needed, easy to miss.

And yes, I still have that tattoo in mind. Haven’t green lighted it yet, but if I go for D it will absolutely be the first thing I do.

IHS = In Home Separation

I see, that makes more sense.

IHS is going ok, for me personally anyway. I’ve stopped putting any emotional energy into trying to manage her emotions or convince myself that our relationship is ok, and I’m just kind of doing what I want to do. Which involves more time with my kids, and walks, and baths. My mind is fully back on line at work, the creative ideas and energy is back and feels fucking amazing. I’ve got a second EMDR session tomorrow, we’ll see if we can’t squeeze a little more of the pain out of my body. I’m pretty damn good, actually.

I don’t think she is as good. I think she is scared. I think she is confused and likely feels stuck, like her people pleasing coping skills don’t know what to do, should she honor my requests for separation or actually show she wants me? But I’m guessing, because we aren’t talking, because I don’t want to. Emergent, your warnings over the months of how problematic our inability to talk is have proven prophetic. We aren’t solving problems, and we’ve got a shit ton of problems. She doesn’t know how, I believe, she can’t handle the conflict and sees only that a winner must imply a loser, she can’t see HikingOut’s win/win situations. I know I can. I used to doubt that, I used to try to shoulder at least half the "blame" (I feel like there should be a better word, but I’ll go with it for now) for our struggles. I feel like I’ve been in self doubt long enough. I’m feeling ready to make a bet on myself.

I am thrilled for you InkHulk that you are finally insisting on what *you* deserve. It is very clear you gave your WW a lot of chances, and that (reading between the lines) her work each time even these past several months simply was not cutting it. I wish you the best moving forward.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 3:37 AM, Thursday, January 25th]

I think she is confused and likely feels stuck, like her people pleasing coping skills don’t know what to do, should she honor my requests for separation or actually show she wants me?

I concur. We did IHS, in month ten, but this was supposed to be until we had our ducks in a row for divorce. We drew up the papers, all of it. Still, this was often exactly what I was weighing.

I am thrilled for you InkHulk that you are finally insisting on what *you* deserve

I know that you mean that in the best possible way and you’ve wanted my good like this for a long time. And I genuinely appreciate that. But if this comes to D, there are going to be children with a broken home, there are going to be families ripped apart that were once close like blood. I’m personally not going to be partying, I’m going to have lost my life partner. So maybe I’m just saying "thrilled" doesn’t really match the tone for me.

This must be very hard. If there is anything you’re thinking through that WOULD feel good to talk about would love to hear. I can’t really imagine what in home separation must feel like. I feel like there would be like twenty times a day where I would think to go tell my partner something only to realize I wouldn’t be doing that (unless it was something for the kids, I assume you probably are keeping that going). Hope the kids are handling it alright. Not sure how much they know. I’m not even sure how much my own children know on a day to day basis. Hopefully your music is seeing you through. Hang in there.

The thing is, right now, it’s NOT very hard for me. The last 18 months, those were hard (and the nomination for understatement of the year goes to….). This right now is peaceful, for me. We haven’t told the kids explicitly, but they are smart and they will notice a difference soon if they haven’t already. I don’t feel like saying ILY to my wife right now, so I’m not. She seems to keep saying to me to hope to draw one out of me, and I’m guessing the kids will notice that absence. I’m the Dutch boy who finally said screw it and let the dam fall. There is some sadness, and there are some moments where tears well up. I’m not a complete stoic, though I am really working on self comforting and dealing with my own emotions. I want to feel them and honor them, make them part of the conversation, but also keep my head and not shit all over those around me.

Thanks for the invitation, I think it’s pretty clear that I’m not afraid to talk about things when I want to (I guess other than with my wife ).

But yes, I do love music and it helps my soul in hard times. I’m open for suggestions, but just saying that ImAChump and BTB’s rock opera just didn’t quite match my tastes

[This message edited by InkHulk at 2:53 PM, Thursday, January 25th]

This is interesting to me and strikes me as important. Why do you think this is? Does she agree (or are you even able to have that conversation with her)? If so, what are her thoughts on this?

I haven’t had this conversation with her, I think it’s beyond where we are as a couple right now. But I have my own thoughts. For our entire marriage I’ve encountered this, but it took me years and years to formulate thoughts about what was going on and it’s only after the A that I actually have solidified a story I believe well enough. Crazy making, indeed.

I think this is the coming together of two elements of her FOO trauma. First, it’s the wicked inner critic and her intense defensiveness. Anything, including a perfectly valid complaint (per Gottman’s definitions) made her feel bad about herself. And two, she has an intense fear of anger, very likely from her father, and that has led her to be hypervigalent of any signs of anger, and that basically is any high energy emotion. She gets threatened when I am excited about something and that comes thru in my voice. Straight up crazy making. But I’ve again and again tried to change myself, mute myself enough to make her comfortable. But it’s never enough, because even if I say it with no emotion, you hit the other part of it that if it’s a complaint about her, it’s unacceptable. It’s come up in therapy over the years and it’s always been pointed back at me, they basically just assumed I was an asshole loud mouth man and she was a kind gentile female soul and the solution was obvious. Fucking lazy thinking, plus my wife was hiding and lying the whole time. Gotta make sure the therapist likes her, after all.

So all that to say that any emotion with "up" energy triggers/scares my wife. Sadness doesn’t have that energy, so she basically just sits back and waits for me to be sad. And sadness looks inward, no complaints coming out then. Pretty damn shitty when I say it like that.

[This message edited by InkHulk at 3:34 PM, Thursday, January 25th]

If I’m intellectually honest with myself, marriage in my experience has been a cage that has kept me working at an impossible task.

But yes, I do love music and it helps my soul in hard times. I’m open for suggestions, but just saying that ImAChump and BTB’s rock opera just didn’t quite match my tastes

IH, I understand that may not be your particular genre and that’s fine. But, damn, didn’t those lyrics "speak to you" as a betrayed person (despite the delivery)?

"The truth exposed and love is devoured
And the ivory tower is coming down
A vow betrayed and honor is broken
The wounds are open and bleeding out

But it's all I can do to carry on
It brings all I fear to life"

I hear you, but the style just was too much for me to take it in. Give me Barenaked Ladies sound with the following lyrics anyday.

But I'm warning you, don't ever do
Those crazy, messed-up things that you do
If you ever do, I promise you
I'll be the first to crucify you
Now it's time to prove
That you've come back here to rebuild

InkHulk:

I know that you mean that in the best possible way and you’ve wanted my good like this for a long time. And I genuinely appreciate that. But if this comes to D, there are going to be children with a broken home, there are going to be families ripped apart that were once close like blood. I’m personally not going to be partying, I’m going to have lost my life partner. So maybe I’m just saying "thrilled" doesn’t really match the tone for me.

You are right that I did mean that in the best possible way but that I still should have rethought how I worded my post, and I do apologize for my insensitive word choice. I understand that you badly wanted R and a path forward for your marriage, not just for yourself or your WW (e.g., giving her the grace you feel that Scripture seems to ask that you do) but also for your FAMILY. But do know (and you already do know, I imagine) that you gave it more than a fair shot and that you deserve happiness for YOURSELF too.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 9:32 PM, Thursday, January 25th]

If I’m intellectually honest with myself, marriage in my experience has been a cage that has kept me working at an impossible task.

I just want to acknowledge this statement. That is tremendously sad, yet so understandable. Wishing for the best outcome for you no matter how that looks.

I would only suggest that if what you wrote wasn’t just out of being at a low point right now, that it’s a truth that truly resonates even on a good day…to dig into your whys. Evaluate what put you there and kept you there. There is so much wisdom and change that can come from finding the true answers to that.

Sending up prayers.

Thanks, HikingOut, I’ll let that one marinate for a while.

Thinking this morning that I’ve talked before about letting go of my alcoholic father when he made it perfectly clear that he didn’t even desire to be free of it. I’ve had that as a comparison poInt in my mind for this situation. But this is worse. I didn’t quit on him until he gave a verbally unambiguous statement of his position. So does that mean I would have hung around him indefinitely if he would have been clever enough to keep stringing me along? Same with my wife: she says she wants me and wants to change. I don’t think those words should be enough, that those should be what decide this for me. I know, I know, actions over words. And that is part of what I’m saying here. And also that I need to internalize the decision, not wait for her to make it for me.

In my experience, things like that unravel over time. Holding the questions is usually the path to becoming more self aware. Your initial epiphany will start resonating into other things. It’s definitely not a question I am posing for forum type answers. Holding questions is a big path to healing. But it’s a circuitous path. Glad this is now your focus.

Ink, I’m so sorry about where you are at. I realized in your last post—about your wife’s FOO stuff, anger, defensiveness, sensitivity to criticism (even if its just a slight change in the tone of voice)—that these issues are why I have related very much to your circumstance. It is not just the same timing, we are at the 18 monthish mark right? It sucks coming up against that wall of poor coping strategies from your WW. It is what I have been dealing with as well—and sounds like for you too there has been bending over backwards and accommodating their slow progress and understanding and supporting their limited growth and doing basically anything to open their eyes to what is going on and what the consequences have been and will be.

But, maybe a difference (I’m not sure), is my WS has been subject to heavy confrontation from me now for 8 years and maybe we are getting to some change. Plus, lying about the PA for seven years has put him at rock bottom.

I respect how much you have put into this. For them to come so close and yet be so far is devastating, especially when your family’s wellbeing feels at stake. It sounds like you get a little stronger every day. I think that is what we have to do. Regardless of whether they can join the forward path or not, we just have to keep getting stronger and healthier. It sounds like you’re not going to engage in an unhealthy relationship ever again. I hope I’m on the same path.

[This message edited by Stillconfused2022 at 7:01 PM, Friday, January 26th]

Hang in there Ink!

marriage in my experience has been a cage

Fore some reason this made me listen to the Stones' "you can't always get what you want"

Marriage can absolutely be a cage. But I tend to think of it more like a collapsed wave function. Sure, all the possibilities are obliterated into an outcome, but new functions arise in the aftermath. I have faith that you'll "find what you need" somewhere in there.

StillConfused,
Yes, we are on the same timescale, and it sounds like our partners have some notable similarities. I feel this intense burden to inform my children of these characteristics and their potential dire implications. Both in themselves and their future potential partners. Cause I had no fucking idea that meek people pleasing was HIGHLY correlated to cheating. Seemed mostly harmless, until you realize that every human being is a fire hose of emotions and desires so if you can’t see them coming out in the normal ways, you can be sure they are going somewhere eventually.

For them to come so close and yet be so far is devastating, especially when your family’s wellbeing feels at stake.

I think you removed a comment about your husband coming to his poor coping skills "honestly". I noted it because it’s a phrase we’ve used here at home recently. I hear sympathy in that, and I have it too for my wife. But I think that that implies a backward looking question of justice, like can we hold them fully accountable for their actions when we know they have such difficult extenuating circumstances? And that is a valid question, but I think it’s the wrong question for you and me at this stage. I think the question is, looking forward, knowing what I now know, do I believe I can have a good life with this person? No obligations, no vows, no worries about kids or money or reputations or any of that shit. Just, is this person in front me a person I would willingly choose as a life partner. Leave justice out of it, it’s too complex and we aren’t empowered to give it. Just looking to the future, is this the person for me?

I could use a little help analyzing this situation: it was my wife’s birthday recently. I have some very strong A associations with her birthday, plus we are IHS right now, so I chose not to do much around it. I did make a grocery store run for a dessert my kids were making for her for an ingredient she specifically requested. But in terms of a normal spouse response to a birthday, very muted. She could have chosen to go out with friends, do whatever she wanted, but she didn’t and she mostly moped around the house. I’d put $50 if you asked her that she would say that she did that because she thought I’d expect it if her.

Anyway, this morning, she came up and asked me if I would tell her about my hurt around birthdays. She said she wanted to understand me better. I was kind of trepidatious, but it seemed like a reasonable request and a chance to break a little ice. So I opened a window to her, went back into some vulnerability and pain and I told her about these associations. She stood pretty distant, no emotion showed up on her face, and she gave the clinical "that makes sense" kind of stuff. She then quickly launched into a highly emotional statement of how she felt hurt and ignored. To which I only gave a blank stare and quickly closed my window.

I’m new to this detachment and 180 stuff, but let me try to analyze this. It DOES make sense that a person would feel hurt if their spouse doesn’t celebrate their birthday. HOWEVER, we are in frikin’ IHS, for goodness sake, and I just described (and have before in the past) these awful things she has done to taint this for me. What does she expect me to do, just eat the deep emotional pain she put there so she can feel special for a day at my expense? Again, go out with friends, go to a spa, I don’t give a shit. But to mope around and then come to me as if it was my job to save her from it. This is all fucked up, right? Remember, I’m a very recently recovering codependent.

She’s just not getting it.