SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Thank you for your response; I was concerned that I had upset you, which was not at all my intention. I think your input has been invaluable. Given that we agree your situation does not involve a revenge affair but is more about coping, perhaps we can agree that much of the infidelity we observe can be seen as a form of coping in one way or another. As such, it can be quite indistinguishable from a typical affair. Once someone decides to move forward and recommit, it simply ceases to be a revenge affair. Therefore, I’m not sure how applicable your circumstances are to this post.

To clarify, let’s consider a hypothetical scenario: John cheats on Jane, and she leaves to stay at her brother's house before they have had the chance to fully address the situation—a fairly typical response. They go no contact for a few weeks. During this time, let’s imagine that Jane engages in a revenge affair or fling. If, after this period, John and Jane were to meet and discuss the state of their marriage and their desire to reconcile (assuming the revenge was not overly disproportionate), it would be hypocritical for John, the original cheater, to lack understanding for Jane's actions, provided he was willing to work on their relationship. My point is that by demonstrating a willingness to reconcile, she is implicitly acknowledging some level of understanding. If John turned around and said: I was hopeful we could make this work and you would forgive me but now I have no intention of forgiving you - he wouldn't have a leg to stand on. People would rightfully think he was awful, even more so, I'd argue than if he'd simply been a cheater. Now he's a cheat and a hypocrite.

I apologize if this is a complex situation; I hope I’ve explained myself correctly. It may perhaps make me seem sociopathic, or maybe I simply lack the lived experience in this context. I am genuinely trying to envision how I would feel in such a scenario. In truth, I don't think I would feel shame if I conducted myself as described above. I could be wrong, but I also don’t imagine I would feel guilty if my boss punched me and I responded in kind. However, I would feel terrible in either case if I were the instigator.

You are contradicting yourself in the points you are making. You are saying the wayward spouse (WS) should be understanding, that it’s already broken and shouldn’t hurt as much, but at the same time, you are saying that it should show the WS how it feels to be cheated on, so it should hurt them. And when it does, they should not react to that pain? I don’t think your conjecture aligns with reality.

I never stated that it shouldn’t hurt the WS, as that would indeed be a contradiction. What I am arguing is that the WS should not expect the BS to uphold fidelity in a relationship where the WS has already violated that trust. This isn’t about denying the WS's hurt; it’s about addressing their expectations. Until both parties reach a mutual decision to forgive and recommit, if that’s possible, the hurt will naturally persist.

Furthermore, I believe it’s important for the WS to experience this hurt to fully understand what they are asking the BS to forgive. I don’t see this as a contradiction at all. Perhaps with this clarification, you can agree, or maybe I’m missing something.

Tobster1911

I largely agree with your car analogy but suggest switching the ownership. If someone crashed your car deliberately (like an affair), it emphasizes the need for consequences. Crashing their car, while petty, might prevent them from harming others and help both parties understand each other's pain, potentially allowing for mutual forgiveness. Ideally, neither party would be involved with each other's cars going forward, but that's not the main issue here.

Regarding collateral damage, I agree that it's crucial to manage casual hookups without it. This is entirely achievable.

I offer that you may want to consider that this is not a good definition of being principled. Being principled is not about the other person or rubbing their nose in it. It is about what you will and will not do…. I will not have an affair (no matter what someone else does) is being principled. What you give as an example is simply more justification or excuses. If you didn’t do the dishes…a principled person would own that. Not deflect with a convenient redirection.

I merged two points: being principled and being stubborn. The constant referring to the affair was more my stubbornness; it made it hard to focus on other issues.

As for my principles, I decided long ago that I won’t forgive betrayal, which extends beyond infidelity. I haven’t spoken to my father in years over a similar issue, and I don’t lose sleep over it. I couldn't be happy with someone who betrays me so deeply. I know my worth and realize I can find fulfilling relationships elsewhere. I believe there’s no such thing as a soul mate, and it's not difficult for me to avoid cheating. I couldn't reconcile being with someone who’s betrayed me; I’d be constantly reminded I deserve better. At its core, it’s about self-belief and knowing my worth.

** Came back to edit **

This is my personal stance, I'm not suggesting those who are more forgiving than I are incorrect or worse than me in any way. In fact, In fact, I think that some aspects my life could improve by being more forgiving. Though you could also argue that some of those who are more forgiving could benefit from having more ridged boundaries.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 3:58 PM, Tuesday, January 28th]

In your second paragraph you seem to directly contradict yourself in the first. You stated in the first paragraph a cheater merely requires empathy to understand the effects of cheating yet in the second paragraph outline that I wouldn’t know how I’d react unless I was in that situation. Apparently a wayward can understand things using empathy alone but I require lived experience?

Does anyone know how they'd feel once others' shoes are on their feet? Probably not, but I'm not going to violate my moral code to don the WS' shoes just so I'll better understand. I'll use my empathy and my communication skills to attempt understanding as best as I'm able. Also, I said that both the WS and BS need empathy in order to R well, not just the WS.

A BS is usually thrust into their position without having had a choice in the matter. A BS who has an RA or accepts a hall pass is making a choice to change the dynamic of their role. Some may find that empowering. We listen and we don't judge.

Whilst I agree we are all responsible for our actions, to argue cause and effect has no bearing on things simply isn’t reality. Many who cheat have reasons for why they did it. In most cases they just aren’t justifiable. I’m arguing if they are justifiable, like in the example of revenge cheating. It changes everything.

IMO, "cheating back" is not justifiable if both parties have agreed to attempt R. R is a new covenant. That covenant could include hall passes, but that's not cheating. That's agreeing to open the marriage.

Also, one could argue that an RA isn't really an A if one party has made it clear that they wish to D. In your example of John and Jane, the state of the marriage was left in limbo, and IMO, both cheated. I agree that John would be a hypocrite if Jane's A was a dealbreaker for R, but infidelity is rife with hypocritical behavior and logic isn't usually the way most of us recover. Recovery is mostly a matter of the heart.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 5:25 PM, Tuesday, January 28th]

To clarify, let’s consider a hypothetical scenario: John cheats on Jane, and she leaves to stay at her brother's house before they have had the chance to fully address the situation—a fairly typical response. They go no contact for a few weeks. During this time, let’s imagine that Jane engages in a revenge affair or fling. If, after this period, John and Jane were to meet and discuss the state of their marriage and their desire to reconcile (assuming the revenge was not overly disproportionate), it would be hypocritical for John, the original cheater, to lack understanding for Jane's actions, provided he was willing to work on their relationship. My point is that by demonstrating a willingness to reconcile, she is implicitly acknowledging some level of understanding. If John turned around and said: I was hopeful we could make this work and you would forgive me but now I have no intention of forgiving you - he wouldn't have a leg to stand on. People would rightfully think he was awful, even more so, I'd argue than if he'd simply been a cheater. Now he's a cheat and a hypocrite.

I have rarely seen a case that is as cut and dry as this one. I think the biggest danger of this is not ever the original ws accepting the behavior. I think the state I was in in those initial days after dday it would have been a relief becuae I would have seen us as even (given my affair was short lived as well).

The problem is that lends itself to rugsweeping for a lot of people. You did it, I did it, we are even. Maybe you stay married, but that’s not reconciliation. Reconciliation requires deep introspective work by both the bs and the ws in which there is a new understanding abou themselves and their contributions to the status of their relationship at any time. I do feel this happens best when the bs has the higher ground of being the innocent, and most of the time more principled party. As the ws you should want to hang the moon and stars for them and make any and every amend to them as you can. You need to be earning back trust and learning about your character flaws and how to fix them.

To be remorseful enough to be curious about their pain and see the damage you created clearly. A revenge affair muddies all that.

Furthermore, I believe it’s important for the WS to experience this hurt to fully understand what they are asking the BS to forgive. I don’t see this as a contradiction at all. Perhaps with this clarification, you can agree, or maybe I’m missing something.

If you can agree the ws can be as hurt about the bs’s affair, why do you think they can’t cope differently than the bs and say then I want a divorce? The thing about dealing with trauma is it compounds past trauma. By admitting to being with someone else, regardless of the order these things happen, there is just no assurance as to what that triggers inside of that person. Relationships and emotional are not logical. And whether you think the bs has a right to do it without repercussions because the ws did it first, it rarely ever lands that way.

I think what makes my situation different is not that he didn’t have a revenge affair. It’s that I had 3 years to grow my values and character and by the time he did it, I had changed my opinions of affairs, I had worked on myself, I had been here writing almost every day of those three years trying to work out my issues and how to help him. That doesn’t deserve kudos, it’s more I am saying that I had time to hate cheating and affairs. A new ws that is cheated on most of the time is going to find it a relief that their bs has no high ground and use it to rugsweep.

** member to member **

I wrote a whole page of analysis and criticism of the ideas DRS put forward in this post. I will clarify by deletion:

DRS, IMO your thinking is very flawed. I would not trust you as a partner if you actually hold believe the arguments you've espoused in this thread.

Oh, and you did jot offend me. I was just saying I am clear on my own hypocrisy, and didn’t need clarification on whether I was or wasn’t. I just wanted to remove it from discussion. There are times that you can react differently to the same stimulus and still need to follow your heart in what you can and can’t accept.

I think it’s a perfectly reasonable reaction sometimes for the ws to be the one to end the marriage. Whether it be they don’t want to go through reconciliation, whether they know they can dish it out but can’t take it, whether they get healthy but their bs is entrenched in their own toxicity. I think sometimes it’s more about being authentic because if they can’t stick by the bs it’s probably better to know that earlier than later.

sisoon - I've heard of clarify by deletion but in this instance I fear it clarify by deletion ad absurdum. That it is to say you've redacted so much of your post I'm not sure what your objections are.

DRS, IMO your thinking is very flawed. I would not trust you as a partner if you actually hold believe the arguments you've espoused in this thread.

Two points of clarification here, these posts have been an amalgamation of logical arguments, moral reasoning and personal opinions from me.

I tried to clarify the specific points where I have referenced my personal opinions in my posts but feel free to ask for clarity.

Second point of clarification, I would never cheat. Now I know people are reluctant to believe such declarations but I suppose all I can do is assure you I would never. If needs been i'll come back in fifty years (hopefully) on my death bed and reaffirm this. This includes revenge cheating. Not because I can't see justification in revenge cheating but simply because I wouldn't reconcile. As such it's impossible to revenge cheat.

With regards to you not trusting me as your partner, I'm interested to your reasoning here. I genuinely will look to improve my thinking in line with this if its valid. I did reference not being forgiven quite recklessly. I am forgiving of 99 percent of discretions in a relationship, I simply have a hard line on betrayal. I presume this isn't an outrageous opinion in this forum. I also do not partake in tit for tat responses in relationships generally but can see the moral reasoning if one was to act that way.

I guess the only thing that would make one feel unsafe in a relationship with me is if they prone to cheating. In which case, I would be quite happy to scare off such partners. Outside of that, I don't follow.

I understand the concept of an RA as some desperate attempt to force a WS who is still not out of the fog to FEEL MY PAIN. But an RA necessitates pulling some other unfortunate soul into this madness. Even if they are willing partners, a healthy regard for another human being should keep you from simply using another human in that way, in my opinion - of course, there is no way any traditional system of morality would condone this either.

JimBetrayed62 Interesting perspective. I would tend to agree that collateral damage is a concern in such circumstances. That being said, I'm not sure it necessitates it.

What is your opinion of hook up culture generally? When I was single I participated in hook up culture to a degree. I don't personally believe in any case it ended in heartache. Certainly that I'm aware of.

Furthermore, I for sure had a few rebound flings off the back of my break up (due to cheating) likewise I wouldn't suggest it caused any pain on any sides. In fact, I will be attending the wedding of one such encounter in a few weeks. This was all many years ago now of course.

I understand the concept of an RA as some desperate attempt to force a WS who is still not out of the fog to FEEL MY PAIN.

I think also that there is no guarantee that a WS is going to feel the same or even similar pain that the BS feels. They may have a different set of values, feelings, opinions, etc. So the BS having the RA may have brought themselves down to that level for no reason at all.

My other thought is if the WS has an affair for 2 years, shouldn't the RA be the same? It's really not "leveling the field" to sleep with someone one time if the WS's affair involved so much more than that. I mean, we've all heard people say it's not so much the sex as it the lies, the investment of time into someone else, the ILY's to someone else, etc. Obviously, it IS the sex, too but the hall pass or RA doesn't seem to involve what the initial actual affair probably was.

Regarding hook-up culture - I could
never condone it now - ultimately I just think it violates human dignity and degrades what should be special (and which affairs horribly violate) - the unique, beautiful intimacy between man and wife that is sacred and experienced by that couple alone - no one else is to "know" them in that way.

The problem is a couple generations of scrapping that conventional approach to sex within marriage has largely destroyed even the ability to experience unique intimacy - even if it were desired. Neither my wife nor I were virgins when we married. I regret that.

I often thought of trying to have an affair - I just wanted to experience the love of a woman who didn’t see me through a lifetime of baggage of marriage and the disappointment that inevitably accrues over time. And frankly - I think there are other women who would appreciate me now in ways my wife has forgotten or no longer or never has valued. Still - it’s a crapshoot, and nothing is guaranteed in life, so I’ve decided to work with what I’ve got. What stopped me always from heading that direction, however, was that unless a divorce had proceeded it, developing an affair relationship and emotional entanglement would ultimately have caused pain to either my affair partner, my wife, or both. I just found it unfair to involve someone else into that mix.

I also considered the NSA sex approach - but I then realized I would be then no better than my WS - and wouldn’t it have been better to just end the marriage? And my own religious beliefs did not condone that in any degree.

I understand you see things differently and the hook-up culture is an accepted thing. I just think the culture has traded something that can be beautiful and sacred for short-term fun and cheap thrills, and has gotten the worst of it in that trade.

JimBetrayed62 beautifully put. I'm not even sure i do see things differently. Just something I hadn't considered. Hook up culture could well be detetmintal to society in a boarder sense.

I could well be convinced of that, That being said I don't think it negates the possibility of having a fling without it causing harm to either party. In the short term. Perhaps more broadly it damages the beauty in sex in the long term.

I'll certainly be considering this point for some time. Many thanks

1) Hypocrisy - IMO, if a person weren't already a hypocrite, they wouldn't cheat; honest people do not cheat, IMO, and hypocrisy is just a type of dishonesty in my book. Also, WSes are clearly flawed as partners. Since an RA seems to follow d-day pretty closely, the WS is still unhealthy when partners become madhatters. I don't expect many WSes to be honest or effective human beings for many months after d-day.

And then there's the fact that commonly held beliefs about logic, fairness, morality/ethics, whatever do not govern every human being's behavior. In fact, we know that we sometimes have mutually exclusive ways of being moral - dump vs forgive a cheater, for example. Some people deviate from norms, and it's hard to predict who will deviate in what ways.

I can see a WS who cheated to get external validation thinking they 'can't' stay with a partner, if they view the A as external invalidation, for example, and that's only one way a WS can choose to D a BS turned madhatter.

So I understand cheating, wanting R, starting R, and then dumping a partner because the partner cheated.

*****

2) One primary justification of RAs is that they help BSes feel better about themselves.

To the extent that happens, it's because the RA feeds a need for external validation - and any need for external validation in an adult is unhealthy.

One of the problems - one of the illusions - BSes need to deal with is that they've placed a lot of their self-esteem on the shoulders of their partners - partners who have betrayed them. Whether they realize it or not, they've probably come to feel the external validation they get from their partner is necessary. A BS can't heal without learning they'll be OK without external validation from anyone, much less from their WS. To heal, a BS need to learn to validate themself, even though they may not use that terminology.

BSes need to accept that nothing can change the fact that they've been betrayed. I think - hope - it's fine, even unavoidable, to do some wishful thinking in the aftermath of d-day. But healing happens internally. The BS heals in part by accepting the betrayal, figuring out its impact, and rebuilding themself. The BS is the only person who can do that work.

An RA is a distraction, a wrong turn.

*****

3) Another justification is to make the WS feel the pain that the BS feels, but that was addressed above. I agree it's impossible to make a WS feel what the BS feels.

4) You state that infidelity by one partner allows the other partner to cheat as well as if it were a fact.

My point is that there are many of us who think the BS's vows remain valid unless the BS chooses D. Maybe a violation of the fidelity clause does kill the whole M contract. But given the amount of disagreement, I think we should treat the idea that the whole contract is dead as an opinion.

I could not disagree more with that opinion. I'm not a lawyer, but even I know enough to add to most contracts a clause to the effect that breaching one part of the contract does not necessarily void the whole contract.

My M contract with my W did not obligate either of us to be perfect. I certainly didn't expect this particularly devastating imperfection from her, but life is risky. That risk has brought a lot of good things into my life, and a lot of pain, too, but that's life. (BTW, I think I've suffered worse traumas than being betrayed, and I know my W has suffered worse trauma than betraying.)

*****

Generalizations do not help people heal from infidelity. Especially when one turns bits and pieces of ideas into straw men.

To heal, a BS needs to be willing to look inside and deal with the anger, grief, fear, and shame that come with being betrayed. They need to tear themself down and build themself back up from the pieces that want to keep. Generalizations require detachment, which is the enemy of healing.

One doesn't heal from the flu by reading papers abut the flu. One's body has to get dirty fighting the viruses that live inside one's body. That's true for healing from being betrayed, too.

It's not easy, but it's worth the effort.

*****

This whole discussion stems, IMO, from a misplaced focus on something like fairness. There's no fairness in infidelity. Trying to find some way of making infidelity fair is to attempt an impossible task - and to fail, which may leave the BS feeling even worse.

Trying to justify a revenge A for any reason is wayward thinking. Wayward thinking is not conducive to being a good partner.

The more one gives up the idea that life can be fair, the more one can heal. We really need to accept that there's no fairness in infidelity.

Very well said, sisoon. So many important little nuggets of wisdom in your post.

I understand your logic in the abstract. Double negative = positive, right.

Real life doesn't work like that. When Hank Williams sings, "...ain't nobody never gonna love me nohow...", his quadruple negative isn't inferring that his narrator is 'bout to get some loving. Hank is telling us there is no way his narrator will ever get loving.

Feelings aren't linear, nor logical. I'm in a biracial marriage with a black wife. I'm quite certain that if I cheated on her with a white or Asian woman she would be way more hurt than if I cheated on her with a black woman, even though in all cases it would be a human woman.

Each instance of infidelity has its own dynamic. The details matter. The way they matter is highly personal and subjective to the person cheated on. There have, for example, been countless threads here discussing a scenario where a cheating spouse gave some type of romantic or sexual pleasure to the AP that was denied to the BS. Many feel that there is no overcoming that species of hurt.

Your eye-for-an-eye logic removes the subjectivity out of the equation. A wife who has a casual ONS on a business trip, and who feels at an emotional level that a ONS isn't a big deal, possibly would see things your way if the BH had a ONS in the aftermath. Franky, however, if a couple has reached the point where they can engage in tit-for-tat adulterous sex without any strong emotional response are they really even married in any meaningful way at that point?

That was hypothetical. Cheating doesn't work that way in real life. It's messy. There are lies and deception. Emotional withdrawal. Sexual humiliation. Often, the cheater him- or herself experiences self-loathing (indeed, often the self-loathing is a vector that leads to the cheating). If the betrayed decides to cheat in response, the WS might try to use that as a way to absolve themselves of feeling guilt for their initial wrongdoing. Or it could amplify their self-loathing. Etc. It is almost guaranteed that this is not a path to healing and reconciling the marriage.

That said, in my case, my WW told me that she was leaving me for the AP. I quickly fell into a highly sexual rebound relationship with somebody new. I will say that sex with somebody new was very healing for the sense of emasculation and sexual humiliation I was feeling in the aftermath of the cheating. I'm one of the rare posters here who will say that sex with somebody new by a BS in the aftermath of Dday can be healing for the BS. Keep in mind, however, that I had no thoughts of reconciliation.

In real life, if a couple was trying to reconcile after the BH had been in a highly sexual rebound, might it be theoretically possible that a WW could reach a place emotionally where she was okay with this in light of the salutary effects vis-a-vis his feelings of emasculation/sexual humiliation? Sure, that's theoretically possible. Or not. Depends on the humans involved, their emotions, etc. I recall a thread where the BH was fixated, decades after Dday, on the idea that he could never be the last guy his WW had sex with for the first time. He ended up cheating on her so that she also would not be the last woman he had sex with for the first time. Same kinda twisted logic. The marriage was a train wreck. My personal view is that if the marriage is so bad in the aftermath of Dday that a BS's mind is wending its way into that sort of twisted logic, it's probably time to call it a day.

[This message edited by Butforthegrace at 2:13 PM, Wednesday, January 29th]

Generalizations do not help people heal from infidelity. Especially when one turns bits and pieces of ideas into straw men.

This whole discussion stems, IMO, from a misplaced focus on something like fairness. There's no fairness in infidelity. Trying to find some way of making infidelity fair is to attempt an impossible task - and to fail, which may leave the BS feeling even worse.

That is so well said on both points! Thank you!

This is a subject that I have been considering bring up on the board for some time so I thank DRS for doing so.

I have read all the responses so far and I am having a little cognitive dissonance in my previous thoughts on this vs what others have posted.

I guess I never thought of a revenge affair as seeking some sort of justice, but that seems to be the prevailing thought process here.

What I previously thought of as a revenge affair should really just be classified as a subsequent affair by a BS.

Hikingout wrote:

I agree, he did not cheat to get revenge. He cheated to cope. I think most of the time when there is a subsequent affair in he marriage that is as common as one who seeks justice.

We always talk about the brokenness of WS who have affairs, but upon DDay the BS is now broken as well. They experience the need for validation, the feeling of emptiness, desire for ego kibbles, trauma etc. that are often at the center of the whys that WS discover. Except the person who did the breaking was the WS.
In this I can see how she came to the conclusion that it was not about revenge but about coping.

BFTG wrote:

That said, in my case, my WW told me that she was leaving me for the AP. I quickly fell into a highly sexual rebound relationship with somebody new. I will say that sex with somebody new was very healing for the sense of emasculation and sexual humiliation I was feeling in the aftermath of the cheating. I'm one of the rare posters here who will say that sex with somebody new by a BS in the aftermath of Dday can be healing for the BS. Keep in mind, however, that I had no thoughts of reconciliation

This speaks more to my personal mindset on the issue. I could see how a BS can want desperately to believe that sex with someone new will help healing the sense of humilation that they feel. It has been very tempting in my own personal thoughts...it was difficult as I had to admit this to myself or else I might have fell down that rabbit hole.

I can understand how a person might want to reconcile but fall into wayward thinking and do the exact same thing as their WS, but not do it from a place of "revenge".

** Member to Member **

IDK ... sex with a number of different people after D, with no long term commitment ... if there are no commitments, there can be no betrayal or no betrayal trauma.

One member here described something like a psychotic break on d-day - she went to bar and picked some random guy up. CBS and hiking write of an RA as a way of coping with pain. I can understand that.

Where I have difficulty is justifying an RA. An RA simply isn't justice or justified, IMO. Playing with logic to argue that an RA is honest/healthy/justified/etc. is a game. I guess I see that as a way of distancing oneself from one's feelings, and I think that's the complete opposite of what a BS needs to do to heal.

So, DRS, here are some questions to ask yourself. What feelings led you to see a(n) RA as justified? If you express those feelings directly, will you still think an RA is justified?

[This message edited by SI Staff at 4:45 PM, Thursday, January 30th]