SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Hi everyone,

I’d like to open a conversation about how the community's views have evolved regarding hall passes and revenge affairs.

During my research, I noticed that much of the content surrounding these topics, despite being a few years old, skews heavily negative. I struggled to find anyone who would publicly advocate for these actions.

Let’s start with revenge affairs. I understand the counterarguments here; it’s true that situations like these are rarely straightforward, and the saying "two wrongs don't make a right" does hold some validity. However, I can appreciate the perspective that engaging in a revenge affair might serve to level the playing field. While many manage to navigate the feelings of resentment through therapy or other healthy outlets, I recognize that some individuals may find it difficult to move past the hurt caused by a partner’s infidelity. In such cases, revenge affairs might feel like a means of regaining a sense of autonomy or justice.

Furthermore, it seems essential for individuals involved in infidelity to grasp the full impact of their actions. I argue that true reconciliation is nearly impossible without both partners understanding the nuances of that betrayal. It feels somewhat hollow to seek forgiveness without considering how one would feel in the position of the harmed partner.

This brings me to the often-debated notion that a cheater cannot justifiably divorce a partner who has also cheated. While I recognize that individuals are entitled to their own boundaries, I must contend that this notion is, at its core, hypocritical. If both parties have agreed to certain boundaries and one partner breaches them, it's inconsistent to condemn the other for doing the same. Hypocrisy, in my view, is unavoidable in that scenario.

Is it ideal to find oneself in such complicated circumstances? Certainly not. But neither is the original act of betrayal.

My character is such I could never personally reconcile either way. I'm far to principled and know I would never respect myself for reconciling with a cheater, perhaps a character flaw on my behalf. That being said, if due to family or financial constraints it was inconceivable to divorce. I feel I could only let go of the resentment if they forgave me of cheating also.

Now, regarding hall passes, I genuinely struggle to identify a moral counterpoint. In this case, consent has been actively given, which is a clear distinction from the betrayal that comes with cheating, where consent is absent.

I realize that I am combining two quite different subjects, so I welcome any differing opinions on each.

Please note, my intention here is purely academic; I'm not presenting evidence on the success rates of relationships that have experienced revenge affairs, nor am I suggesting that engaging in them will improve a relationship. However, from a moral and logical standpoint, it seems that the cheater has little ground to stand on when it comes to expressing outrage about their partner's potential actions in response.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 5:52 PM, Monday, January 27th]

Conceptually, I agree with you. It seems to be the proper response.
However, as a MH, it was a big source of pain for me. I won't say regret because that relationship ended and I wound up with my wife shortly after. After 30 years is still the love of my life.
My situation is similar to yours from your bio. My fiancee at the time cheated on me, and without thinking I immediately cheated back with someone who I knew she didn't like. FWIW, the guy she cheated with wasn't a "friend," but was someone I was familiar with. APs who are friends versus strangers who intimidate the BPs is probably a debate for another thread.
I think the main difference between an A and an RA is intent. The A most often comes out of nowhere and completely blows up your world view. An RA is often premeditated with the intent of "teaching a lesson" to the BP. So, they see it coming. It just doesn't have the same impact.
I certainly didn't get the ego kibbles from my RA that she got from her A. I felt weirdly empty afterward. I actually felt pretty guilty from using my AP the way I did. I told my WF what I'd done, and she was hurt but couldn't argue that she had it coming. I felt we were even.
Boy, howdy, we weren't. She dumped me in an incredibly cruel fashion that still bothers me (hence why I'm here). She was unable to handle me cheating, but was able to compartmentalize what she'd done in such a way that removed nearly all risk.
No real karma either. Last I heard, she's remarried (for the third time) to a man much older than her and living in...well, her lifestyle hasn't changed considerably since she was a young woman. As far as anyone can tell, she's happy. I genuinely don't harbor any ill will toward her.
Lastly, BSs often get their own version of justice in knowing they tainted something often for such little return. They cheated on a faithful partner with a POS who more often than not used them for sex. If you cheat too, then that harsh truth doesn't quite stick the same way.
Sorry to be blunt, but your POS friend and XWP may or may not be the "real thing." They certainly line up morally. Damaged people often find other damaged people, and instead of negating said damage it often gets multiplied. As far as you know, he's constantly suspicious of her since he knows she's a cheater, and she probably can't stand his Red Pill BS but is sitting on it because she...well...fucked up her life for him. To leave would mean she's a cheater and a hypocrite, right? Or, they may be the kind of love story that endures through the ages.
What you'll need to work on is your acceptance that your life is what it is because of your experiences, for good or bad. Her life has no bearing on you now aside from a painful shared history. I suspect you're a better partner to your current partner than you would have been without this experience. I know I am.
Last thing, read "The Power of Now" by Eckhart Tolle. It's a great read for people dealing with past trauma.
Stay strong.

I will challenge you on this from my perspective:

This brings me to the often-debated notion that a cheater cannot justifiably divorce a partner who has also cheated. While I recognize that individuals are entitled to their own boundaries, I must contend that this notion is, at its core, hypocritical. If both parties have agreed to certain boundaries and one partner breaches them, it's inconsistent to condemn the other for doing the same. Hypocrisy, in my view, is unavoidable in that scenario.

When my husband cheated, I felt his hypocrisy actually. If one believes cheating is wrong to their core, they won’t do it. Prior to my finding out it was a much worse feeling to have cheated on an honest, faithful spouse. Now we were both morally reprehensible people who had even more work to do in order to dig out.

And on top of that, I don’t feel that it’s hypocritical to require and consider the same things he did when I cheated. I asked him to go to therapy. He didn’t ask me to go but only because I was in therapy already working on how to confess and trying to figure out why I did what I did before he found out. But generally I asked for transparency and all the things he asked for when he found out. I don’t think that is hypocritical.

Also, we had been working towards R for three years when I found out about his 18 month revenge affair he conducted in our home. So for me to think that’s what we were doing and me put in my all to that, I believe I was completely justified in considering if it was just time to divorce as our marriage at that point seemed like a huge dumpster fire. Committing to R again when that’s what I thought we were doing was very difficult to put faith in another round of R.

Truth is the best choice is to divorce and not cheat. That would have been a better choice for me and an equally better choice for him. People in affairs often damage themselves in ways they never fathomed as they had one, and I would never advise anyone to have one for any reason. Period.

A hall pass is just a way for a ws to make themselves feel better and to let themselves off the hook.

The best way to reconcile is to become completely honest with one another. The ws to earnestly fix themselves and make amends. To see the damage they have done and to demonstrate to the bs they understand the damage and to behave accordingly. An affair never fixes anything, it doesn’t right wrongs, it just adds instability to an already unstable relationship.

[This message edited by hikingout at 6:52 PM, Monday, January 27th]

Fantastic responses guys, exactly the sort of responses I was hoping to get.

Hikingout - I can't agree that it was hypocrisy on your husbands behalf. Presumably he was only of the belief that cheating is wrong in a committed relationship. A relationship where fidelity is maintained and respected. Surely once that has been broken, what's left to be loyal to? If your playing catch in a room with an expensive vase and you hit and break it... You may as well keep playing. The vase is already broken.

I fully agree with your next paragraph, it's entirely fair to require the same thing of him that he requested of you. We are not in disagreement here. Though you'd still have to admit to yourself that your actions drove this situation. It it truly was a revenge affair, no need for the revenge should you have maintained loyalty.

I can't see anything but hypocrisy in your third paragraph, perhaps you could clarify. Are you stating the very fact you were in R, working on something that you damaged is reason it is unjustifiable for him to do the exact same damage you did yet are attempting to work through? I know you wont mean it like this but I can't read this any other way than 'it was wrong when I did it but let's work on it but if you do the same it's done'

Agreed divorce would be my preference and recommendation most of the time too.

A hall pass could make WS feel better but supposing reclaiming ones sexuality does help the BS. What would the problem be if this is the case. I'm not arguing it would, just morally what's the issue?

I agree largely with your last statement, I'm not discussing here what is best path for reconciliation, just discussing the logical and moral outlooks on revenge affairs

I deeply regret my RA it was pre-meditated and done in anger. What bothers me the most is that I lost my integrity from it but learned a valuable lesson about myself and my coping skills. I worked on myself in therapy for many years and have healthier coping skills now. I do not recommend it, as angry as I was I should have divorced then rather than the path I took.

crazyblindsided - Thanks for your comment, again. Just to clarify, I'm not making the argument that it will necessarily help a BS nor that one 'should' do it. Just wether it would be wrong to do so, should it help a BS.

Obviously in your circumstances, it did not but presume it actually helped you a lot. Presume you reclaimed your self esteem. Suppose you then felt the playing field with your spouse was somewhat equalled and that allowed you to engage in R.

In this hypothetical scenario, I'm suggesting that a RA is not necessarily a bad thing. It's clearly not the same as an affair morally.

I'm actually surprised that amount of people saying that being with another person post cheating had no positive affect. I actually have never had an RA because wouldn't reconcile but in the wake of the break up I hammered dating apps for a couple of casual hook ups. It didn't heal me but it gave me a lot of positives. Probably got me through the initial pain

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 8:44 PM, Monday, January 27th]

Hikingout - I can't agree that it was hypocrisy on your husbands behalf. Presumably he was only of the belief that cheating is wrong in a committed relationship. A relationship where fidelity is maintained and respected. Surely once that has been broken, what's left to be loyal to? If your playing catch in a room with an expensive vase and you hit and break it... You may as well keep playing. The vase is already broken.

My husband began his affair 18 months after dday and continued until we were 36 months after dday. I had granted him everything he asked for in a divorce 10 months out from dday. He could have gone forward with a very nice divorce settlement at that time. He made a decision To try and reconcile, he was not forced into it. During the time of his affair he gave me a new ring and told me I deserved it. He said all sorts of things to me that were lies.

In other words, we had done some repairs and made new commitments to each other. I do not deny that I critically injured the relationship. I do not deny that his affair was likely born out of coping with mine.

But, if someone feels it’s wrong to commit adultry while married, and they do it themselves, then one’s commitment to their values is not stronger than the original ws.

I fully agree with your next paragraph, it's entirely fair to require the same thing of him that he requested of you. We are not in disagreement here. Though you'd still have to admit to yourself that your actions drove this situation. It it truly was a revenge affair, no need for the revenge should you have maintained loyalty.

The problem with this argument is I don’t believe there are justifiable reasons to have an affair under any circumstances. I do not believe anyone deserves to be cheated in. I do not think it’s hypocritical for me to say after all I have been through and who I have become as a result.

But to play devils advocate-what if his behavior broke the marriage first? Certainly you can think there are other things besides infidelity that can break something. I should have gotten a divorce, I do not dispute that. But I was coping with pain over our relationship as well. (It was later that I realized my contributions to that dying marriage) That wasn’t a good reason to cheat. I cheated because I lacked character and integrity. And SO DID HE. If we wanted to get into semantics, my fair was conducted for two months long distance. His was conducted in my home, with our employee for over a year AFTER he knew what pain an affair could bring.

This is the reason two wrongs don’t make a right, there is no way to exact revenge on someone in an equal amount. There is no such thing. No one deserves to be cheated on, it’s avoidant behavior. Plus, an affair is not good for anyone, all it does is create shame and more pain. It was literally the worst thing I ever did to myself and he agrees the same about him. Because it’s never just fun and games, it’s not a good thing for anyone psychologically. I have paid for those two months and in some ways will pay for the rest of my life. It taught me nothing for my husband to cheat on me, it only made the situation even harder to overcome for both of us.

I can't see anything but hypocrisy in your third paragraph, perhaps you could clarify. Are you stating the very fact you were in R, working on something that you damaged is reason it is unjustifiable for him to do the exact same damage you did yet are attempting to work through? I know you wont mean it like this but I can't read this any other way than 'it was wrong when I did it but let's work on it but if you do the same it's done'

No. I am saying that it wasn’t hypocritical that I wanted to divorce. Why would I want to work on reconciling with someone who just proved they weren’t interested in that for the first three years? It’s more, I was working to recover the marriage alone, what assurance did I have that he was really going to work with me this time? It’s very similiar to why he would have wanted to divorce me in my affair. I spent three years reconciling alone, for something I did, but to have him seem as engaged in it as he did, I had every right not to trust I was going to get a different result.

And let’s get one thing straight here, I am no hypocrite. I am someone who worked very hard to become a better person, and I have changed perspectives as a result. I do not feel it was right to cheat. I believe he can still divorce me for it almost 8 years later and I would understand and work with him towards an amicable divorce. But, I think it’s fair that I could divorce him in the same way. We are together because we fully want to be and because we both committed to healing ourselves and having a much better marriage. But it was wrong for him too regardless of how you see it.

A hall pass could make WS feel better but supposing reclaiming ones sexuality does help the BS. What would the problem be if this is the case. I'm not arguing it would, just morally what's the issue?

That’s a surface view. People who want to feel better about themselves will do so by living their values. People who have affairs use others for their own gratification and it actually hurts their self esteem to stoop as low as their ws. Not one person here who had an affair in response to their spouses affair feel good about it. We had one ws a long time ago who thought he was justified and jhe came back with apologies later when it dawned on him the damage it actually did him.I will say my husband hated himself a good bit over his affair and who he actually reclaimed his sexuality with was with me.

You are coming at this with a lot of generalizations and judgment. You did not choose a revenge affair- why not? Because deep down I believe you knew it would not fix what was broken.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:08 PM, Monday, January 27th]

I have always landed on the side against either a revenge affair or a hall pass.

The RA is not justice, it is revenge. Big difference. I mean it's right there in the name. It's not called a "justice affair". The punishment for assault is not a punch to the face.

Which brings me to the main point against the RA: there is no relationship that is made stronger by having an affair, revenge or otherwise. It's a big problem that has to be solved. In terms of "making things even" it's a massive loss for the BS. When the BS is just a BS they have the moral high ground even if they are the victim of the original affair. They are losing the high ground to someone that has proven they have the initiative to strike first, deceive, and abuse them. This is the whole "when you argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience" sort of situation.

As for the hall pass, if your objective is committed monogamy, it doesn't make any sense. This also plays into the "everyone wants to fuck someone else" mindset of the cheater in the first place. While not as damaging as a RA in terms of pulling the BS off the moral high ground, it does have multiple negative effects for R. 1) Suggests there might be something valid to non-monogamy, giving a sort of acceptance of the affair as not only a reasonable desire, but something that has value to act on in some way. 2) Will be used as a cudgel if you still act hurt about the A, "I gave you a hall pass, we are even now!". 3) The BS may find difficulty in actually executing the hall pass which could further hurt their thoughts on how tough it is to find a new partner even though looking for an NSA sex partner is nothing like looking for a real relationship partner. Overall, there is not much to gain for the BS, and quite a bit to lose.

So my advice is if you want committed monogamy and R, work towards it. An RA or hall pass is a move in the wrong direction.

If you genuinely never really wanted monogamy, I'm not really one to help give good advice.

My response here is purely hypothetical. I did not choose to cheat after my wife did. I was offered a Hall Pass that I refused. My situation is complicated by the fact my wife was a serial cheater over the first 20 years of our marriage. I suspected affairs in real time(and caught her in one EA) but she always lied and I chose to believe those lies. This was also before the time of cell phones and such for the most part so catching her was also difficult.

I have a bit of a problem with the term "revenge affair" in general. If one is truly cheating to "get back" at their partner using another human being for that purpose is despicable. Also, there would need to be a "rub it in your face" component to truly exact "revenge" but it seems most people who cheat after being cheated on do it in secret. How do you exact your revenge if the target doesn’t even know? Maybe it’s the deceitfulness of doing it and keeping them in the dark like they did you? My mind just doesn’t grasp that concept.

Now, I HAVE thought about how I would have reacted in real time. During the time my wife was cheating early in our marriage I had ample opportunities to cheat. In fact, after I got married I spent more effort fighting off women pursuing me than I ever spent pursuing women before getting in a committed relationship. This was mostly due to my job of being the GM of a full service restaurant (den of iniquity in the mid 80s) full of women looking to curry favor (or get leverage) with the boss. It was EXTREMELY hard to stay faithful. Not least of all because my wife cut me off from sex for long stretches during those early years of cheating. My first thought on D-Day was "Holy shit, I could have gone buck wild back then". It wasn’t a sense of "revenge" but more inequity for me. She trashed the marriage within the first year. I look at it as a "broken contract". When she broke it, I was released from my obligations (I understand religious people view this differently). I would have viewed it as the marriage ended, now we’re waiting on the paperwork. If we had chosen to reconcile, much like Hikingout said, expectations change and there is a "reset". You can’t go "tit for tat" and try to heal at the same time IMO.

One of the things that bothers me most about my situation is that I did catch my wife in an early EA the second year of our marriage. She left the home and I thought we were done. She asked to return and I agreed as long as she went NC. She didn’t. The affair went on 7-8 more months and became physical. In the meantime, we decided to have a second child (yes mine). If you want to fuck around, go fuck around. Don’t tell me you are "all in" then keep doing it. Same goes for "revenge affairs" or "mad hatting" of "tit for tat" IMO. Be married, or don’t! Lying to me in that moment and coming back with no intention to remain faithful is the true betrayal of our marriage. That is the moment my life was stolen. Intent matters!

There were three parties to the vows I made.

Me, my now WW, and God.

Perhaps my wife’s cheating releases me from my promises to her (contract law applies?).

But I made those promises to myself, as well. My integrity is at stake.

And does my wife’s behavior release me from my promises to God? I’m not even sure I believe in God, but best to be careful, here.

This brings me to the often-debated notion that a cheater cannot justifiably divorce a partner who has also cheated.

Have to say that all the years I have been on this site this has never been a debated notion. A person that doesn’t want to be in a marriage can get a divorce for whatever reason they want. It can be because your spouse cheated, or it can be because your spouse doesn’t cook meatloaf like your mom. It could even be because YOU don’t want to be married.

Furthermore, it seems essential for individuals involved in infidelity to grasp the full impact of their actions. I argue that true reconciliation is nearly impossible without both partners understanding the nuances of that betrayal. It feels somewhat hollow to seek forgiveness without considering how one would feel in the position of the harmed partner.

This all boils down to whether or not the WS is able to feel empathy, doesn't it? And the BS too, really. I don't need to subject myself to something that I find unethical in order to feel empathetic to the emotional turmoil of a WS who has betrayed me. And all an even somewhat emotionally intelligent WS needs to understand how their BS is feeling is to see the effects of their actions on the BS. If they're not empathetic to the BS's pain, they're terrible candidates for R. It's rather juvenile to suggest that tit-for-tat is needed in order to truly understand.

This brings me to the often-debated notion that a cheater cannot justifiably divorce a partner who has also cheated.

Where is this being debated? I haven't seen it. Like Bigger said, the standard advice around here is that no one needs a valid reason to decide that they want to leave a marriage.

My character is such I could never personally reconcile either way. I'm far to principled and know I would never respect myself for reconciling with a cheater, perhaps a character flaw on my behalf.

It's been my experience - personally and witnessed on this site and others - that one never knows how they will react until they're the one wearing the shoes. Before DDay, I repeated "My H would never cheat on me, and if he did, I'd leave." Wrong on both counts. It's quite common for a BS to be amazed at their desire to walk back the boundary that they set when they didn't know better, and to feel guilty about it.

Though you'd still have to admit to yourself that your actions drove this situation.

What you're really suggesting here is that a victim isn't responsible for the choices that they've made simply because they're a victim first. Yeah, no. This is ground we all should have covered in kindergarten. We're all responsible for our own actions and reactions.

I was offered a hall pass during my EA, which my H knew about in real time and darn near participated in. My H actually encouraged a progression to PA with the understanding that he could then have sex with someone of his choosing. (I didn't yet know that he had already had two As and was about to begin his third.) I was literally in a hotel room with the AP and had the blessing of my H, and still declined because I knew how I would feel if I went through with it.

He also suggested that I date mere days after DDay, when my world was obviously crumbling. The suggestion didn't feel like an opportunity. It was not titillating. It felt like a slap in the face, which is what it essentially was. Go do this thing that I did so that I don't have to feel so guilty. Yeah, no thanks.

Two wrongs make it worse.

Of course, I understand why anyone would consider lowering their own morals or standards for some sense of revenge or in hopes of balancing pain, whatever.

Cheating is bad.

There is no way to way to change it and make cheating magically good, even in the name of vengeance or other rationalizations.

I'm glad I held my vows, held myself to a higher standard.

First, if someone has hurt you enough to justify cheating on them, then they've hurt you enough to get divorced. Cheating and then expecting your spouse's unconditional acceptance/forgiveness is the height of selfishness and entitlement, whether the other person cheated on your first or not.

Second, even if you manage to find an AP who happily consents to being your revenge affair, there's something just degrading and disgusting about using someone else's body for gratification in order to inflict pain on someone else. There's never been a problem in the world that's been solved by adding more people to it.

Third, as SacredSoul described from her experience, it's extremely common for a WS to gladly accept or even offer a hall pass because it's way easier to let their BS leap off from the moral high ground and down to the WS's level than it is for the WS to do the hard work necessary to fix themselves and rebuild their relationship.

Any BS who accepts a hall pass or succeeds in convincing their WS to give them one must be willing to give up any hope or expectation that the WS will put any meaningful effort into reconciliation. From that day forward, every attempt by the BS to discuss their pain, anxiety, lack of trust, etc, will be met with: "But you had your own affair. We're even now. Get over it."

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 2:32 AM, Tuesday, January 28th]

This is where these "what if" games fall apart for me.

But to play devils advocate-what if his behavior broke the marriage first? Certainly you can think there are other things besides infidelity that can break something. I should have gotten a divorce, I do not dispute that. But I was coping with pain over our relationship as well.

The RA or hall pass argument is really simply justification exactly like the original WS engaged in. There would be no logical end. And believe me the temptation was extremely strong at first as I have only ever been with one woman…. She on the other hand had plenty of experiences both before and now after marriage…. The injustice I feel is off the charts. But it comes down to what does my moral code actually hold. Not hers. Or anyone else’s. If I decide those experiences are worth more to me than the marriage, I will divorce first. To do otherwise is exactly the "cake" we claim WS of wanting.

Oh and the OP does come across as condescending at best to those who choose to attempt reconciliation just a bit and it flavors the tone. Hard to judge that too much though this medium. I hope I am wrong.

First, I want to thank everyone for their input on this topic. My goal was to gauge whether the community's opinions have shifted compared to the historical posts I found. Based on the sample size here, it seems my initial findings still hold: people generally do not favor these actions.

I anticipated some criticism, knowing that this is a highly sensitive topic. I want to assure you that my responses were not intended to be judgmental or condescending. In fact, I contemplated removing my personal opinions regarding R from the discussion to avoid contaminating the responses. However, I felt that would not be intellectually honest, as it's impossible to completely set aside one's personal experiences and beliefs when engaging in what was meant to be a purely hypothetical argument.

It's challenging to have open conversations on this subject without making it personal, especially since we have all experienced infidelity and share the understanding of its profound pain. People are drawing directly from their own experiences. I acknowledge that I may have contributed to this tension; labeling a view as hypocritical is inherently inflammatory. Nonetheless, I hope this discussion is taken in the spirit it was intended.

I will try to respond to everyone's comments but I'm starting to feel like I'm trying to empty a sinking ship with a teaspoon.

Hikingout based on how you've defined the circumstances surrounding your husband's infidelity, I’m not sure he could convincingly argue that it was indeed a revenge affair. While he may frame his actions as a justification for cheating, I don’t believe it fits the definition of a revenge affair. To me, it appears simply to be two individuals in a relationship who, at different times, engaged in affairs.

The timing complicates this scenario. Let me illustrate with an analogy: we can all agree that physical violence is wrong. If you and your boss had an argument at work and he punched you, then you punched him back, the police arriving on the scene would likely consider who struck first when deciding whom to arrest. You could argue that your response was justified, but their assessment would heavily rely on who initiated the altercation.

Now, suppose your boss hit you, apologized, and you both moved on. Eighteen months later, if you walked into the office and punched him, it would be viewed very differently. Similarly, the nature of the response matters. You mentioned the severity of your husband's affair and the timing involved. If, after being hit by your boss, you pulled out a bat and attacked him, the police would likely arrest you, regardless of who struck first.

I’ve already expressed my views on the hypocrisy aspect and have nothing further to add. In my opinion, you cannot expect fidelity in a relationship where that fidelity has not been upheld. This isn't hypocrisy; it's a point we can agree to disagree on.

Regarding your perspective that no one deserves to be cheated on and that infidelity is never justifiable, I believe this is at the core of our disagreement. Personally, I think that someone who cheats does deserve to experience the consequences of their actions. I genuinely hope my ex has faced similar betrayal in her current relationship.

As for your question about whether his behavior broke the marriage first, I agree it would depend on what that behavior entailed. I have little sympathy for men who are physically or emotionally abusive and then experience infidelity. Likewise, I have no sympathy for partners who SA significant others. On the other hand, if the issue is something inconsequential—like not doing the dishes or working too much—cheating in response to such behaviors is clearly extreme and unjustifiable. Using the earlier analogy, if someone punches you, a retaliatory punch could be justified. But if someone merely flicks you and you respond with extreme aggression, that would not be acceptable.

I concur that divorce should generally be the preferred route. Cheating is usually the cowardly and immoral solution. However, I believe in some circumstances, I would not judge someone harshly for cheating, including in cases of revenge cheating.

In my view, it becomes hypocritical if one cheats and then begs for forgiveness, seeking to reconcile the relationship while refusing to extend the same understanding when the tables are turned. If you feel this characterization does not apply to you, then perhaps you don’t see yourself as a hypocrite. Regardless, in response to some criticism, I will not impose my personal opinions on you or your situation.

Bigger I think the word up for discussion here is "justifiable." While anyone can divorce anyone for any reason, telling your friends or your spouse's family the motivating factor was that they "don’t cook meatloaf like mom" would likely lead them to view you as unreasonable in that situation. The point I was trying to make is whether you can justify divorcing someone for an act you once pleaded forgiveness for.

This is different from a profound desire to no longer be married. I hope that clarifies my stance.

Formerpeopleperson I found your perspective really intriguing. I hadn't considered the religious implications when I posed the question. My only counterpoint would be that if your wife's infidelity releases you from the promises you made to her, wouldn't that implicitly also relieve you of the promises you made to yourself? Logically, it mirrors the situation of a widower. Her death would relieve you of the obligation to remain loyal to her; similarly, you would then be free to pursue a new marriage. I share your uncertainty about my beliefs regarding a higher power, and I don’t want to delve into that at this moment.

SacredSoul33 It’s hard to argue the WS is truly capable of the level of empathy required to fully understand the pain of the betrayal given they were fully capable of enacting it. Ok, if it was a one time situation and they deeply regretted it afterwards that’s one thing. A long term affair though? Or multiple. If they were so empathetic they would be incapable of acting this way to begin with. This is my opinion.

In your second paragraph you seem to directly contradict yourself in the first. You stated in the first paragraph a cheater merely requires empathy to understand the effects of cheating yet in the second paragraph outline that I wouldn’t know how I’d react unless I was in that situation. Apparently a wayward can understand things using empathy alone but I require lived experience?

I have been cheated on and understand the hurt. I also understand myself. I understand that I would never be able to let it go. I’m principled in such that I wouldn’t even want to let myself. I know I would consistently bring it up. You haven’t done the dishes? How dare you be annoyed at that, you cheated on me. Etc etc. We would never be able to move forward. It would be a lost cause.

Whilst I agree we are all responsible for our actions, to argue cause and effect has no bearing on things simply isn’t reality. Many who cheat have reasons for why they did it. In most cases they just aren’t justifiable. I’m arguing if they are justifiable, like in the example of revenge cheating. It changes everything.

Tobster1911 The what if game is the game we are playing. I think I explained my stance on this above, in response to Hikingout. Let me know if you have any follow ups. I agree with your statement however, a revenge affair or hall pass is a justification. The thing about justifications though, is they are sometimes just.

As stated, I'm sorry you felt my tone was condescending. Have you considered that it's not that I'm being condescending but rather that I'm just better than you? ahahah. Sorry, old joke. I obviously don't believe that. No it's not my intention to upset those who reconcile. I see the validity in it for those who don't have my temperament. I'm not arguing my highly principled, stubborn approach to life is correct, just that it makes me incapable of R.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 8:07 AM, Tuesday, January 28th]

I would much rather keep my integrity intact than use another person in an attempt to show my husband what it feels like to be cheated on. Why would I want to level the playing field if I’m playing on a nice grassy lawn and the other person is playing in barnyard muck? The vase analogy doesn’t really work for me either. If someone smashes a beautiful vase that’s precious to me, my instinct is either to mourn the breakage and move on, or work with them to put the pieces back together, not start smashing it more.

My values aren’t contingent on the actions of other people.

There are certainly other ways of looking at this, and navigating infidelity is hard enough that I’m going to give people a lot of grace when it comes to their response to it, but I see revenge affairs as one example of the negative, cyclical ways we deal with pain and injury as human beings. There are cycles of violence and revenge and trauma that we can all get sucked into. To me, one of the highest moral callings is to break those cycles, not perpetuate them.

[This message edited by Grieving at 11:51 AM, Tuesday, January 28th]

Grieving I could completely understand your view point. I think personally I too would rather simply leave the situation then retaliate in anyway. I'm merely making the argument that a revenge affair can be viewed as justifiable and if it did help a BS to feel able to reconcile as the playing field was now level. I can support it. This view seems at odds with many users.

Regarding the vase analogy, in the analogy I intended the vase to represent fidelity, not the wider relationship. Once fidelity has been broken on one side, you can't expect your partner to maintain fidelity on the other. The agreement is already broken. I agree this analogy doesn't fit when trying to append it to a relationship as a whole.

I think the most powerful element of your response is as follows: My values aren’t contingent on the actions of other people. I completely agree with you. My values too aren't contingent on others. My view of fidelity however is contingent on the nature of the relationship I am in, if I'm in a casual or open relationship - not that I necessarily would be - I would have no issues sleeping with others. As being faithful wasn't part of the deal. Similarly if I am in a relationship and my partner was not faithful I would no longer be required to be faithful either. The value hasn't changed, the relationship has.

I agree, he did not cheat to get revenge. He cheated to cope. I think most of the time when there is a subsequent affair in he marriage that is as common as one who seeks justice.

In my view, it becomes hypocritical if one cheats and then begs for forgiveness, seeking to reconcile the relationship while refusing to extend the same understanding when the tables are turned. If you feel this characterization does not apply to you, then perhaps you don’t see yourself as a hypocrite.

Well I think there is a flaw in your thinking here. You are saying that someone who cheated should extend the same understanding. Yet we are discussing revenge affairs. Someone who has a revenge affair is spiraling and reacting, not being understanding. I would not have expected my husband to be understanding. If he expected me to be understanding, I wasn’t either. But I was willing to offer the same things as he did which was, get some help, we will give it some time and see what happens.

I think most bs react that way because it’s such a shock it can’t be absorbed and processed immediately. It’s part of the denial and bargaining stage of grief, and that’s why you see most people take at least six months to a year (and often times more) to make any decision. There were times I wanted to divorce him, just like there were times he had wanted to divorce me.

There are people here who cheated in a revenge way, there was a popular poster years ago who upon finding out her husband cheated went out and found someone within like 4 hours and had a one night stand with him. She always relayed it as "she went out of her mind" she greatly regretted her actions even though she did move forward with a divorce. I always understood how that could happen, even though to me it’s predictable that it really did nothing healing for her.

So I will say again, affairs are avoidant behaviors. A subsequent affair is a way of avoiding pain temporarily but it leaves this footprint of shame that then can control your thoughts and behaviors. Anyone being controlled by fear or shame has a hard time finding joy. In that way, I feel anyone who has an affair (and doesn’t have something like narcissism, isn’t a psychopath) generally has to spend a lot of time reconciling with oneself.

You see an affair as something fun, which is understandable because it does bring on feelings of euphoria. But any fun that is had on the backs of others, that causes so much pain- it’s never going to be worth whatever moments of happiness one thinks they have had. I am not sure I can ever forgive myself for that behavior and I think many bs’s who have a subsequent affair learn that, they learn the darker parts of what happens, they learn way more than they teach their ws. Whatever they were avoiding would have been easier to face without compromising their values, now they find the hole they were trying to crawl from got much deeper.

Also- you are contradicting yourself in the points you are making. You are saying the ws should be understanding, that it’s already broken and shouldn’t hurt as much. But at the same time you are saying that it should show the ws how it feels to be cheated on. So it should hurt them? And when it does they should not react to that pain? I don’t think your conjecture falls in line with the reality of how it plays out in reality.

[This message edited by hikingout at 2:33 PM, Tuesday, January 28th]

In the spirit of "what if" let’s try another analogy. Let’s say you and your partner each have a car. One day your partner decides to crash their car repeatedly and without your knowledge. You are saying it is now justified to go crash your car.

First, you didn’t need them to give you a reason….you could have crashed your car at any time. You simply want to deflect responsibility.

Second, each person is driving their own car and is the only one in control of it. It is an intentional choice to crash.

Third, even if there is some mental gymnastics to make it "ok"….you still end up with two smashed up vehicles. Not sure there is a win. And yes I fully understand the appeal in theory of believing you are some regaining your manhood through that. I also believe it would be fleeting and ultimately not solve anything.

Fourth, I don’t see how crashing your car teaches them any other lesson besides your driving is just as horrible as theirs. Yes they may experience pain which seems more your goal…. Typically the response is to remove their license and enroll them in drivers education.

Finally, there is likely collateral damage from both crashes. You aren’t absolved of responsibility if you’re driving but blaming it on someone else. I doubt a claim of "I was only driving drunk an hit/killed someone because my wife cheated on me" would hold up in court. Being upset is understandable. Getting drunk over it is somewhat understandable (I don’t drink so I am assuming). But it is still a choice to go drive drunk…

I’m principled in such that I wouldn’t even want to let myself. I know I would consistently bring it up. You haven’t done the dishes? How dare you be annoyed at that, you cheated on me. Etc etc.

I offer that you may want to consider that this is not a good definition of being principled. Being principled is not about the other person or rubbing their nose in it. It is about what you will and will not do…. I will not have an affair (no matter what someone else does) is being principled. What you give as an example is simply more justification or excuses. If you didn’t do the dishes…a principled person would own that. Not deflect with a convenient redirection.

This is a good mental exercise though. It should be had inside all of us. I wrestled with it for a few years. The massive pain of the inequity is almost overwhelming. There are lots of ways out that would not include compromising our morals. This discussion doesn’t even move the needle on being upset after all I have been through…