SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

That is what I was getting at before though, although not in those words. You may be able to heal personally from not knowing certain things--hell by that twisted effed-up logic you may have been fine personally had you were never even aware of WW's affair in the first place--but it may be necessary for your **relationship's** healing for every last secret of any significance between WW and OM to be exposed.

That is the crazy thing. She might have successfully lied to me for our whole lives before I talked to my daughter and uncovered the grooming and the lies surrounding it. And I’d have come to the end of my life blissfully unaware, and she would come to the end with lies on her conscience. And that is on her soul, and I have to have peace with that. She might still be hiding big things. Maybe she agreed to those threesomes with POSOM’s wife he invited her to. Maybe she went all WWTL’s xWW and did every thing in the book. I honestly don’t think so, and I’m at peace with that belief, and I suspect she would lie about that. That is honestly where I’m at today. It’s the intersection of broken trust and shame and hope and love.

You believe that she would lie to you. I don't know how one Rs with someone whom they don't believe will be honest.

Then why do any of us stay post D-Day? What is the glue that keeps us in the M after trust has been shattered. You’d all be calling me crazy if I was declaring my unvarnished trust for her. I’m being realistic here, with a hope of getting to a point in the future where I wouldn’t make this statement about anything else again. But I will likely forever have some doubt in my mind about what she did with him sexually unless she confesses to my worst nightmares. But maybe that never happened, so then I’ll just always have this doubt. It’s a small doubt that doesn’t plague me. I’m not throwing away my life over that.

How does one have true intimacy with someone whom they believe could very likely be holding secrets and would lie to them if asked?

What it reads like to me, again, is that you want what you want and you'll tolerate lies (or will avoid asking the hard questions) because the alternative is not palatable. And that's okay, I guess. It's your life. But man, it doesn't bode well for long term emotional health - for you or for the relationship. You'll likely get several years down the road and be filled with regret and frustration over wasted time.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 10:00 PM, Friday, November 10th]

Then why do any of us stay post D-Day?

I stayed because I finally got the friggin' truth on DDay, and every day since, as far as I can tell. My H confessed. When asked questions with potentially painful answers, I got those painful answers, even if it hurt him to tell me and hurt me to hear them. THAT's what reconciliation is, IMO. I believed, based on his actions, that he was done lying and ready to live in the very peaceful land of authenticity and transparency.

You don't have that. You're saying yourself that you believe that you may never have that, but that it's good enough for you. Lots of us here who are OGs are telling you that we've seen this before and it likely won't end well. You push back and we're like... Okay, man, you do you.

You cannot live well outside of integrity. You can try to force it, but your body won't like it. It will fight back and it could hurt you.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 9:59 PM, Friday, November 10th]

How does one have true intimacy with someone whom they believe could very likely be holding secrets and would lie to them if asked?

Well, the process isn’t over yet, I’m reporting a snap shot in time. How did you get from a place of D-Day to trust sufficient to support true intimacy? What do you personally feel and believe about your husband’s ability to deceive you now? That it’s impossible? I personally will now be more suspicious of everyone in the world, that will be a legacy of infidelity to me. Even if it’s just understanding how our FOO and trauma can have us playing awful roles that get us in trouble, the people I love have too strong of motives to lie and betray me to believe it could never happen. That, my friends, is a bell that will never be unrung.

I stayed because I finally got the friggin' truth on DDay, and every day since, as far as I can tell. My H confessed. When asked questions with potentially painful answers, I got those painful answers, even if it hurt him to tell me and hurt me to hear them. THAT's what reconciliation is, IMO. I believed, based on his actions, that he was done lying and ready to live in the very peaceful land of authenticity and transparency.

I do have that. I have answers to hard questions. Those are trust building. But as my multiple confessions have demonstrated, they are no guarantee of having EVERYTHING. Sorry if that is an uncomfortable truth to you, but a truth it is.

StillConfused2022: I feel really heard in your response. We’ll have to be sure to sign yearbooks at the class reunion

I believed, based on his actions, that he was done lying and ready to live in the very peaceful land of authenticity and transparency.

I genuinely believe she wants this too. I see her pursuing it. And I think that she would, given the chance, keep me in the dark about doing one sex act one time in the insanity of her affair to preserve a future with me. Maybe in 10 years she will be the most truthful person you’ve met and I will no longer think this. But that is not today. And for whatever reason, I’m at peace with this state. And if a day comes that I’m not at peace with it, I have the option of asking again and using a poly. And I’ll also have the option to divorce if it comes to that. But today I’m at peace with it, I really am. You have my permission to be happy for me in that.

I do have that. I have answers to hard questions. Those are trust building. But as my multiple confessions have demonstrated, they are no guarantee of having EVERYTHING. Sorry if that is an uncomfortable truth to you, but a truth it is.

Get outta here, man. Have you seen Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty? What popped into my head instantly was 1979 Magic Johnson, cocksure and convinced that he's better on the court than Kareem Abdul-Jabar. Lots of OGs here are trying to help you and you seem certain that you know better. To that I say carry on. Let's see how it plays out.

The bottom line is that you think she would lie to you if asked other hard questions, so you're just not going to ask them.

Get outta here, man. Have you seen Winning Time: The Rise of the Lakers Dynasty? What popped into my head instantly was 1979 Magic Johnson, cocksure and convinced that he's better on the court than Kareem Abdul-Jabar. Lots of OGs here are trying to help you and you seem certain that you know better. To that I say carry on. Let's see how it plays out.

Haven’t seen it. I’ve never been one to back down from an argument, if that isn’t painfully obvious by now. I appreciate your thoughts, but I trust my eyes and my mind and I’m working things out the best way I can. I mean no disrespect. What is OG?

The bottom line is that you think she would lie to you if asked other hard questions, so you're just not going to ask them.

I’m 5 months out from D-Day 2, of course I think she’d lie to me, trust is being rebuilt. I have asked the deal breaker questions, multiple times. I am going to ask the questions to help me move forward, I just dread it. Help me again see what is wrong with any of that.

OG = original gangster In this context, OGs are those of us who've been around a long time, know what it takes to R, and have seen the patterns play out multiple times. We can predict with a certain level of confidence what's going to eventually happen in many different scenarios. (My registered date is not my true start date. The AOL email I used in 2004 for my OG SN is looooong gone. lol)

I’m 5 months out from D-Day 2, of course I think she’d lie to me, trust is being rebuilt. I have asked the deal breaker questions, multiple times. I am going to ask the questions to help me move forward, I just dread it. Help me again see what is wrong with any of that.

This thread reads like you're scared of the truth, but you don't think she'd give it to you anyway.

That was NOT my mindset when we began R. I demanded the truth. All of it. And because I WAS getting the hard answers that I knew hurt him to tell me and hurt me to hear, I believed him. For months and months we'd sit in the garage for a couple of hours every night and I'd grill the fuck out of him. I asked every question that popped into my head, and I asked it again the next night, and the next, if I needed to, to see if anything changed. THAT is how I built up my belief that he was telling me the truth. Of course, the fact that he initially confessed helped greatly, too. I didn't have to drag anything out of him. I didn't experience trickle truth. Not once. (I know I'm very lucky in that regard.) MC told him to answer my questions, and he did. What I could verify, I verified. I'm fairly confident that because he knew I wasn't fuckin' around, he didn't fuck around either.

I completely understand being skeptical. Of course, every BS is skeptical. But you flat out said that you expect her to lie. I never, ever felt like that. Ever. I demanded the truth and I expected compliance.

Maybe I'm the anomaly. I don't know.

[This message edited by SacredSoul33 at 11:05 PM, Friday, November 10th]

We can predict with a certain level of confidence what's going to eventually happen in many different scenarios.

I’m no OG, but I’ve done some homework around here. The scientist in me is looking for patterns, predictors of what indicates success and failure. I’ve engaged a lot of you, I’ve listened to your stories, read profiles and old threads. I defer to the wisdom that only time can bring, but I’m not totally wet behind the ears. What you describe as your experience is most certainly not the secret sauce, I can cite multiple successful R stories of regulars on this board who had a different experience. There just aren’t THAT many truisms that I’ve been able to pick up that I believe are iron clad guideposts on this thing. NO RUGSWEEPING, that one I’m totally on board with. No unmet needs victim blaming, totally with that. Wayward needs to take accountability and do the work to become a safe partner, check check check. But our stories all have different flavors to them. I’m all ears if the OG’s of this place wanted to collectively write that document of how they predict, but we can also just keep talking. It may not seem like it every day, but I do listen. Thank you again for investing precious friday time on me.

InkHulk: you cannot believe your WW while also believing she would lie. Those two things are tautologically opposed.

You cannot keep accepting your WW witholding information from you (after you ask) or her not being open and honest to you unless you are at MC, as part of some sort of process that ends well years later. No. Not after all you've put up with, all you've been through.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 1:58 AM, Saturday, November 11th]

Inkhulk I am 5.5 years out so certainly not wet behind the ears and I can honestly say that you sound as if not more sane and realistic as any "OG". You appear to know what you want in a relationship/marriage and what you need to achieve it. I am of the belief there are no absolutes in getting out of infidelity and reconciliation. A marriage’s success or demise can not be determined or judged by internet strangers because our needs, wants , situations, and marriage dynamics are all so unique. Keep following your heart and gut. Whether it ends well or in heartache, it’s the only path that is right for you.

InkHulk: you cannot believe your WW while also believing she would lie. Those two things are tautologically opposed.

I don’t know how to say this differently than I already have. I don’t fully trust her, maybe that is all I’m really saying at the core of it. That I’d be a fool to blindly believe she’s fully honest with me. But I’m on a path, borrowing her some credit and seeing if she proves herself finally trustworthy.

I appreciate the push back. You do have me looking at my own words and thoughts critically and seeing if they are total bullshit. I can see why you’d be concerned or frustrated with me, but I still see reason for hope.

HI IH,

Just a little disappointed with your WW still holding things back.
I can appreciate that this action and her "protectionist" attitude and action may diminish your levels of trust, and yet I also respect your perspective that "I’m at peace with this state."

I am curious, what songs is she sending you (if they're not too private or personal or TMI ) that are helping you to rebuild love, trust and respect for her?

As always, hang in there mate, it seems that your relationship and both your and her personal healing are all progressing in a healthy and holy way.
Regards,
FAWH.

I don’t fully trust her, maybe that is all I’m really saying at the core of it.

Of course you don't fully trust her. You should not trust someone who tells you 'it's not wise' for you to be asking questions you need to know answers to--and who will only answer tough questions when called out by MC. I have been harping on that point I know, but it is actually a pretty big thing that you need to examine more closely, not a minor detail on the way to you finding out about your WW's cruddy affair anthem.

The larger point of this is that your WW's efforts in opening up to you are distinctly subpar and you should be losing patience. At least.

And, you DO NEED to get out whatever other secrets WW has with OM even if you don't feel the want to do so. Your WW CANNOT have any secrets with OM when this process is done. That is like a warm ember in the asses, it needs to be put out cold.

This^^

Absolutely all of it.

If you ask, she answers honestly. Period point blank.

It isn't wise??? Excuse me for being harsh, but she doesn't get to decide what you need to know. Her saying it isn't wise rubs me the wrong way. She's saying you don't know what you need. She's saying you're not as smart as she is,and she knows better. She's saying her judgment is better than yours. It's highly insulting. If a BS asks its because they want to know. It's the WS job to be honest and transparent. Hasn't she hidden enough from you??

Also,I don't remember exactly how you said it, but the MC insists on full transparency and honesty in their office,and your wife knew if this question was asked in MC,she would be told to answer it. So why put it off?

After months of lies, she should be doing better.

I know some here say maybe she forgot about the songs. But she didn't. She admitted that.

Most women are sentimental, and remember these kinds of things. Hell,I remember the first song I danced to in junior high, with my crush. I remember "our song" with my first love. I remember where I was,and what I was dealing with emotionally,when I hear certain songs. I was curious,and asked my close friends. They agree,as they have the same memories of certain songs.

Do you recall her listening to these songs since dday?

I know you are content to stay,as long as she shows progress. Even if it is at a snail's pace. I just pray,that it pays off for you. I'm concerned that,by the time she gets it,and stops all the lies, you won't be ok. It's torture. It's abusive. That takes its toll.

I know some don't like my perspective. Hell, some have dedicated entire posts,in other forums,slamming everything I tend to say. That's ok. Their opinions are no more important than mine.

[This message edited by HellFire at 1:06 PM, Saturday, November 11th]

Just a little disappointed with your WW still holding things back.

For all the big and many words, FAWH saying he is "a little disappointed" genuinely touched me.

I can appreciate that this action and her "protectionist" attitude and action may diminish your levels of trust, and yet I also respect your perspective that "I’m at peace with this state."

There is a reason this holding back is nearly universal across waywards, and it’s because it has a splash of truth to it. If they reveal this stuff, it hurts the betrayed. Reading the lyrics to Seniorita had me sobbing. And she’s still fighting against shame. But the alternative is lifelong doubt and misery. I think she has given up control, finally, but we’ll see.

I am curious, what songs is she sending you (if they're not too private or personal or TMI smile ) that are helping you to rebuild love, trust and respect for her?

The best one so far is You Get My Love by Pink.

While you were sleeping
I decided to lay it out
Every bad reason
All of my pointless doubts
Where I went wrong
I whispered the ways that I'm ashamed of myself
While you were dreaming
I handed you all my fears
My thoughtless decisions
Turned into thoughtful tears
What have I done for the first time? I blame myself
But you get my love, baby
You get my love
If there's only one thing about me that you can trust
You get my love, baby
You get my love
Don't let my mistakes take that away from us
You get my love

And, you DO NEED to get out whatever other secrets WW has with OM even if you don't feel the want to do so. Your WW CANNOT have any secrets with OM when this process is done. That is like a warm ember in the asses, it needs to be put out cold.

This is not my job, it’s hers. As I’ve stated, as a Christian I am putting my faith in God that He can see such things and will be my protector. I can’t change her soul or heart or mind. If she is insistent on pulling a Bridges of Madison County or whatever romance trash that glorifies the AP as the soul mate that got away, man that is locked up in her soul. That is between her and God. What I am looking for is feeling genuine love. That she is open and intimate with me. That is all I can do. Go say the serenity prayer 10 times if you feel the desire to argue back on this one. This is out of my control. I don’t believe she will be able to hold a candle for him and show me the love I will be looking for.
And no, I don’t have the intimacy I want yet. We’re both doing the personal growth to get there, and the content of the affair hardly makes for wonderful candlelit conversation. But I have a hope, we seem to be making the climb.