SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

It's actually exceptionally hard to leave.

I agree with this it's why I stayed in limbo as long as I did. I'm all for those who have a WS who is remorseful and putting in the work to want to R. R was not easy either because you are around the perpetrator day in and day out triggered constantly. Both options are awful, but I found leaving to be a lot harder than R and R'ing with a non remorseful spouse was absolute torture.

I actually think that in all cases it’s an admittance of having made a mistake. You made a mistake in your selection of a partner. However the biggest mistake one can actually make is to remain in a mistake... to not reconcile OR divorce.

Isn't that the truth!

[This message edited by crazyblindsided at 5:52 PM, Wednesday, February 5th]

@hikingout

I have stated though it felt like a dumpster fire so I did feel like getting out and starting over with a clean slate. So I did contemplate divorce and sometimes felt strongly about it for months at a time. I just wouldn’t say I pushed it. Mostly I kept those thoughts to myself, though he was aware of it in the sense I would shut down.

Sounds almost like you were thinking about a divorce in the same way many BS's think about a RA. Like it was something you felt justified in doing and sometimes really wanted to do -- especially in times of extreme anger, hurt or exasperation -- but ultimately something that you felt like you couldn't or shouldn't go through with.

A follow up question if you don't mind. What I was trying to get at with my first question is whether or not the fact that you had cheated first fundamentally changed the kind and/or the severity of reactions you would permit yourself to have towards your husband's affair. I.e. hypothetically you have never had an affair and your husband has an affair. You decide that the affair is egregrious enough that you will push for divorce even though your husband is doing everything right. Now imagine that same affair occurring after the affair by you. Now your reaction is: "Ok this is really bad but I had an affair first. So even though I'm really hurt and my mind will often times wonder about divorce, I will not actually initiate divorce and simply soldier onward in R so long as my husband is doing everything right." Does there hypothetically exist some kind of affair by your husband for which the preceding scenario would be true for you.

@Sisoon

To the extent that happens, it's because the RA feeds a need for external validation - and any need for external validation in an adult is unhealthy.

One of the problems - one of the illusions - BSes need to deal with is that they've placed a lot of their self-esteem on the shoulders of their partners - partners who have betrayed them. Whether they realize it or not, they've probably come to feel the external validation they get from their partner is necessary. A BS can't heal without learning they'll be OK without external validation from anyone, much less from their WS. To heal, a BS need to learn to validate themself, even though they may not use that terminology.

This implies that a want for external validation would be ok then? If so what exactly is the line between want and need here? I.e. to what degree can an adult desire external validation and still be healthy? I ask because taken at face value that definition seems too strict.

I'd like to hear from other people too if they happen to share Sisoon's sentiment because I do feel like many others share it to one degree or another. And if so then knowing people's individual interpretation will be quite important in understanding people's mindset.

Sounds almost like you were thinking about a divorce in the same way many BS's think about a RA. Like it was something you felt justified in doing and sometimes really wanted to do -- especially in times of extreme anger, hurt or exasperation -- but ultimately something that you felt like you couldn't or shouldn't go through with.

Maybe. I wouldn’t have compared those two things. I would have maybe just said, I thought about divorcing the way most bs think about divorcing.

We had been reconciling for three years by the time I learned of his affair. I felt as blindsided as probably most people here.

Initially I did feel I didn’t have the right to be angry. But honestly, that was just denial. I think most bs go through a period of time when denial and bargaining happens, wanting to get back to normal mode. Not really wanting to deal with the reality of the situation. There is not convenient time to have your life dismantled without your consent.

I felt tired, defeated, and in disbelief that I twisted myself into a pretzel to make it right, he had given me a new ring and to me that was kind of affirmation we were going to make it. It felt like we were closer than ever before. It’s not that I felt I was owed reconciliation, it’s more that I felt like we were doing it. I had no indication whatsoever that we weren’t.

So I felt foolish, and that he never really wanted to reconcile but just couldn’t face that he should have divorced me. It felt over enough that divorce was on the table. I didn’t feel morally obligated not to do it like maybe a bs would when contemplating a revenge affair. In fact there was part of me that believed he just didn’t want to pull the trigger so he wanted me to do it.

The truth is I loved him. I have always loved him, and if we could make it work I wanted that some days. Other days I didn’t see a way through. I don’t really think any of this is abnormal bs stuff. Maybe somewhat more complicated circumstances. But the feelings of betrayal were still there regardless. I still feel if I wanted to I could divorce him. Nothing makes me feel like either of us couldn’t if we can’t be happy moving forward. it’s just not what I want. I love the life we have built together and I regret losing sight of that.

A follow up question if you don't mind. What I was trying to get at with my first question is whether or not the fact that you had cheated first fundamentally changed the kind and/or the severity of reactions you would permit yourself to have towards your husband's affair. I.e. hypothetically you have never had an affair and your husband has an affair. You decide that the affair is egregrious enough that you will push for divorce even though your husband is doing everything right. Now imagine that same affair occurring after the affair by you. Now your reaction is: "Ok this is really bad but I had an affair first. So even though I'm really hurt and my mind will often times wonder about divorce, I will not actually initiate divorce and simply soldier onward in R so long as my husband is doing everything right." Does there hypothetically exist some kind of affair by your husband for which the preceding scenario would be true for you.

It’s hard to give that kind of conjecture. It’s something one could never know. But it is something I have thought about.

I probably would have taken it harder had he did it first. Not for the reasons you might guess though. You seem to think I would have been more accepting because I did it first and fair is fair. But if I hit him first and then he hit me, what would you say? That it didn’t hurt because I started it? No, he probably can hit harder and he sort of did.

What probably made it a bit easier for me was I knew as the ws my affair had nothing to do with him. It was in no way a statement of who he was or what he had to offer. So I think it only softened the blow that I knew that his affair had nothing to do with me. Other than I inflicted the pain he couldn’t deal with.

But he had other options on how to cope with that pain. Just like I had other options on how to cope with the pain I was in at the time of my affair.

I imagine if he had an affair first and wanted to work it out, it might have taken me longer to get over but I probably would have still chosen to try.

Who I was before that three years of work would have been more fragile, less emotionally mature, less educated on affairs.

But I still laid awake at night and wondered if she had something he needed that I didn’t. That he would rather be with her. That feeling of being left out of a terrible secret that takes out that piece that is central to who you are. The more I found out the more overwhelming it all was. I just never thought he would ever do it. Under any circumstance.

And maybe there are those here who believe I had it coming. Maybe I did. It hard to deal with to feel you may have deserved one of the worst things that ever happened to you. It added deeply to the shame I already felt.

In the end I don’t think either of us think of it in that eye for an eye way. No one won, everyone lost. No one deserves to be cheated on, and how you react to it doesn’t have to make sense to anyone else. In all reality my affair was minuscule when compared to the details and offenses he committed in his, but made more significant due to the order. But it wasn’t like he went out and had a fling a couple weeks later. He had time to make other decisions and didn’t.

It was a little like climbing a mountain and almost getting half or three quarters there and then getting hit with an avalanche. Wanting to go back up to climb that mountain again from the bottom took a tenacity and resilience that neither of us knew we had. There was never any assurance the view from the top would be worth it. But thankfully it was. But it taught me that if it hadn’t been, we are each worthy of finding the right placement in the world that we can be happy with what we are looking at.

[This message edited by hikingout at 9:07 PM, Thursday, February 6th]

For me the feeling after Dday "My WS got away with it." was very intense.

The unfairness of having your agency taken away by someone you trusted. . .I literally saw red all the time.

In hindsight there was an element of jealousy not for the AP, but with my Ww. She took a vacation from the M. She got the benefit of being M to me while getting outside validation, sex and then gets her life back.

I understand it differently today, but those are fairly normal thoughts after discovering the A.

Sure my wife explained that she was horrified at her choices, the sex was laughable, she paid and pays dearly to this day.

At the time I did not believe anything she told me. The natural thinking is that she was lying about everything. Trust was lower than zero so I began to believe the opposite of what she said. Of course she sees it negatively now, but I'll bet she loved it and will do it again. F this! I go to see my attorney. . .

Well being the higher earner and combined with various factors including we had children. My wife literally would walk away set for life. Yes I could file on the grounds of adultery, but my attorney advised me that the burden of proof would be next to impossible.

So to me. . . My wife ruined my life and would be "rewarded," for doing so while I would never see my kids as often, and pay her Alimony.

Stay, leave, D, R all looked horrible to me. I felt my life was never going to be good again. IC helped keep the ideations at bay along with significant help from my pharmacist. I felt I had nothing left to lose. I choose to travel for work as often as I could to be away from home and that lady that looks like my W, but doesn't act like her.

When a co-worker showed concern and compassion. . .it did not take long to realize that a RA was probable, heck even plausible. My wife had not given me that kind of female attention in months/years. I was dying and it helped me feel normal.

I figured I can stay M on paper, but enjoy the M vacation my W had unilaterally taken. Why not? It wouldn't be revenge as much as I was like a plant growing in a way to receive some light. . .A hidden option.

Luckily I came on SI outed myself and got "life saving," advice to shut it down and tell my wife.

Sorry that was long, but I remember that time vividly. we have to remember the fragility that some BS carry around for years after Dday. Some have just about given up on life and feel there is nothing left to lose. I mean how could it get worse?

While everyone labels it as revenge, but really it was just trying to cope with newfound brokenness I never expected or wanted.

Not all RAs have revenge as their goal. An A is never the right answer in ANY situation. You can say anything you want around it. That is just mental gymnastics to cherry pick enough justifications to support a conclusion you've made or are going to make soon.(to have an A).

No As are justifiable. It doesn't matter who came to their own self deluded conclusion first. Both are wrong. Lots of options that heal you or your M in lieu of giving up the last of your integrity.

While everyone labels it as revenge, but really it was just trying to cope with newfound brokenness I never expected or wanted.

This is exactly where I believe my husband was. Everything numb and dumb wrote. In fact numb and dumb gave me a lot to think about in my first few years here that probably strengthened my empathy towards all I had done to my husband.

I will say that what I just quoted made me think would I have been as understanding if he just wanted to inflict pain? I don’t know. I know there was a male bs here years ago that seemed to do exactly that, and for years on end. It didn’t make him feel better, it ate him alive and filled him with regret.

Maybe there was an element to having me feel what he went through but I don’t think that was the deep driving force. I think he just used the same tendencies of any ws- justify, deny there will be consequences, and didn’t seem to have a plan past the day he was on. I even truly believe it went on longer than he had wanted to because he painted himself in a corner that he didn’t know how to extricate himself from. When COVID hit he says he felt relief because he had a graceful way to distance himself. He still held out hope that break would allow things to go back to normal with her and she wouldn’t blow up his life. I think he enjoyed it all at first and then it became this prison of guilt. As a result I saw tremendous improvement in how he was treating me and it truly fooled me into believing we were getting somewhere.

A remorseful ws will punish themselves far more than most of the things you can do to them. A non-remorseful ws is not a safe partner and you are better off to divorce them. It will take a little time for them to get there and more time for you to believe they are there. But if your goal is to see if you can reconcile I can not stress enough that using an affair as a way to control a situation will put the situation way further out of control.

If I truly felt that an affair would heal a bs, I would be saying do it. It’s not that I can’t understand the logic OP is applying in the marriage is now null and void. I agree, the covenant is broken. It truly just is not in someone’s best interest to try to solve a problem by complicating that problem
And also bringing an innocent party in who is also going to likely experience years of pain for getting involved.

Oh boy, numb verbalized exactly what was running through my head. Literally the exact same things. While i was faithful, she got to have her fun, sex, and a lot of it with someone younger and more virile, and in my mind with no consequences except a pissed off husband. It just seemed so unfair. I came very close in the five years i stayed to having an RA, but never crossed the line. In retrospect i was close because my boundaries moved significantly after her affair. I had a pretty important job, and worked with a lot of beautiful women. Now however when they flirted i not only paid attention, but flirted back.

I also had lost much of my mojo. Her affair, and the sexual components being as brutal as they were, decimated the view i had of myself as a sexual being. I felt like a failure. I talked a little about it in the baby girl thread, but i discounted, and eventually cut off, any words of affirmation she gave regarding sex. I got tired of hearing about how good i was making her feel, or how much she enjoyed being with me. The first reason was i looked at him, and looked at me, and it made no sense why she would prefer me.

The second reason was our sex life sucked. Especially from what came before it pre affair which was great, and i knew it had to suck for her. No oral which she loved, and i loved to give, minimal kissing, and no holding or tenderness post sex. This was all a 180 degree turn from what we had. So when she told me how much she loved it, i felt it was disingenuous.

For me, i never had an ra, but i forced her into a legal separation which I basically used as a pseudo revenge affair.

I was the one having sex with women that were frankly way too young just to get my mojo back. The sex was purely transactional. I treated them to amazing experiences that they couldn't for the most part get from men their ages, and i got sex with beautiful women. My ex was crushed, but frankly i not only didn't care, but viewed it as a consequence as i had with her knowing how she must of felt sleeping with someone younger and more attractive.

In the end i felt awful i was doing much of this just to punish her, but I couldn’t stop. As i said my treatment of her was as significant as her affair in our divorce. I hated who i became.

The one thing that seems to get glossed over is that if the sex in an RA is good, or in my case positive sexual experiences being amazing during the separation , it does help in the self esteem in getting the mojo back. My guess is that the sex however in a RA is not as likely to be as good. Guilt by the BS, and the fact that the AP in an RA, isnt a good person either. But in my case it was great, and I don’t regret it

waitedwaytoolong

I've just read your story in your bio and it cut me deep. I think me and you have very similar characters. It resonated with me more than most other posters backstories and I could see myself acting exactly in line with how you did. I too have a 'cut my nose off to spite my face' type stubbornness. Meaning I would likely still love my partner should she betray me but I would never allow myself to forgive her. Certainly not reconcile. I often think for this reason, WS who run off with their AP or divorce rather than face the hard work of R are doing the right thing. Takes the burden off the BS.

Given this, what you went through was an absolute nightmare scenario from me. Congratulations on getting through it. A lot of people say to me that I'd a bad experience due to a fact it was with a best friend. Due to the financial strain that followed. Also due to the fact they are still together and 'happy' by all accounts. So maybe it's just what you go through becomes normal.

That being said, given the graphic nature of the sex acts. The fact the guy in question was so vindicative about it. The fact she was genuinely remorseful and wanting to reconcile. Knowing that was impossible due your character. I truly can't imagine that hell.

A specific trigger to me comes with the sex acts in question. I'm really into certain sex acts, like many others, they are rare things. Maybe 6 or so times a year sort of thing. If I found out those acts were being done on a daily basis with someone else, I would explode. Also good for you on not doing something that would put you in jail to the guy. Many would. I hope he's had a miserable life.

I have so many questions: When you started sleeping with your ex again did you do all these acts? Or where they then triggers?

Are you wider family more supportive of the divorce now some time has passed? How is your wife now? Is she dating? How about you? Are you dating and happy? I'm not sure if this is the correct forum for these questions though.

Given that, I'll just say, I truly hope you're well.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 9:44 AM, Friday, February 7th]

WwTL,

I am not sure that if you were separated and she was aware of what you were doing you could really compare that to a revenge affair. I imagine it hurt her to be separated and to have you out seeing women during that separation, but it doesn’t have the elements of betrayal.

And I also surmise that a big part of what really drove you to feel better was emancipation of the situation in your marriage. Taking your power and agency back. I am sure reveling in the female attention created enjoyable experiences that were made sweeter after such a long time of misery.

If a bs says we are separating and I will see other people that’s above board and doesn’t have the same kind of psychological responses as an affair. And I believe that your separation separation just moved on to divorce?

I think this probably falls more in the place of what the op wrote about- participating in the hook up culture as someone free to do so with females who were also free to do so. And again, releasing yourself from a situation that was untenable to you. I do not think many here would begrudge you any of that or think that was morally wrong.

I have thought many times in our conversations over the years that the guilt you have expressed over some of your behaviors in the marriage partially came from you knew she was remorseful and punishing herself for what she had done. (The other part being you didn’t like who it forced you to become) But you didn’t owe her reconciliation.

I feel remorse is there to strengthen the person who has it, rather than something that should create deeper obligation to the bs. If the bs can truly desire reconciliation then its secondary best purpose is for the ws to work towards amends with them. I call that secondary only because if the highest priories of it is achieved- that it precipitates change in the ws- the bs can benefit but it’s not contingent on the outcome of the marriage.

The fact that you tried without the true desire for five full years makes me believe that period of time you just described was you finding freedom from forcing yourself to stay. It’s much harder to find regret when you didn’t lie about it and it began your process for healing.

I just don’t think you can compare that experience to pretending to be one way to someone’s face, sneaking around, dragging another person in who is also married, and acting all in on reconciliation while having sex with someone else on a a damned near daily basis and then greeting your wife at the door with a kiss. It’s just not the same thing.

Had my husband asked for a separation or divorce and then did what he wanted that would have felt completely different to me. Yes it probably would have been painful but my belief that he always aligned himself with his values and acted from a place of integrity would have gone untouched. And maybe more significant was him then having to heal the shame and fallout from those choices and the ways he failed himself, finding himself again after he’d lost himself in that process.

Whereas for me, there will always be an element (that also applies to me for him) which is the person I married and who I believed he was is now modified. I now know he is capable of operating outside of his professed value system and deceiving me while doing it, risking my sexual health, jeopardizing our financial future, and trampling on the marriage of another man who he had a friendship with even though he knew first hand the pain that inflicts, etc.

It’s not that he went and had sex with this other person to get his mojo back as a separated man who made no bones on the state of our marriage. This is a man who willfully lied to me and to the other bs for 18 straight months completely under the radar. Had we separated and he had some flings and then ultimately wanted to get back together, it would have been a different ballgame. I may not have liked it but the foundation of trust would probably been largely unscathed.

Anyway, a separation is not a revenge affair, and in my eyes it is understandable that you do not have bad feelings about the experiences you had as someone who was freshly emancipated from five years of what sounds like living hell. Whereas if my husband has no bad feelings about it, that would make him at best someone who should be divorced and at worst a psychopath of some variety.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:06 PM, Friday, February 7th]

@hikingout

I wasn't aware the person your partner conducted his affair was also married to a friend of his.

What was the fallout from that? Did they stay together? Presumably he lost a lot of friends over this.

Kind of amazing he could inflict this on someone else, when he was so hurt from it to begin with. An RA in which the only victim is the original betrayer is one thing. This is quite the other.

Technically the other bs and his (common law) wife were our employees. The man though was his friend too.

Affairs are often about proximity and convenience. My husband is self employed, works out of our home. The ap came to our house sometimes to work, as she was like an administrative assistant so to speak whereas the man had a different role. He did sometimes come to our house during the day to drop things off, even had the code to our garage.

The ap found out we were having issues and then became like a shoulder to cry on. My husband doesn’t have a lot of close friends, we hadn’t told family, and he didn’t go to IC. So he had bottled up a lot and I think that letting it out made him feel a false bond. My husband is successful and I think she was particularly enamored by that detail. Either that or that’s the perception of the bs when relaying what happened to me.

I don’t actually know if they stayed together. Last I knew they were separated but that was many years ago. My h and the other bs didn’t have mutual friends, and so there really wasn’t any sort of fallout on that. I waited for us to be sued or some other shoe to drop but nothing really ever came of it other than the bs telling him off a couple different times.

[This message edited by hikingout at 12:23 PM, Friday, February 7th]

Kind of amazing he could inflict this on someone else, when he was so hurt from it to begin with. An RA in which the only victim is the original betrayer is one thing. This is quite the other.

Something about this statement irks me though I am not yet clear it should. So consider this maybe more exploration fodder than a statement of opinion.

I think it’s maybe that it takes the glorification of a revenge affair and makes it seem like it’s basically victimless.

The process of having an affair, regardless of the reason takes several elements:

-intent to deceive and self deception

-justifications to overcome cognitive dissonance

-involvement of a third party who will bring their own understanding to the situation that one has no control over.

-no in depth analysis that you are beginning a situation where little is actually in your control (how you will feel, how they will feel, how the bs will react)

-you give up control of your personal outcomes.

So, I can completely understand why there is no empathy from you on the ws being betrayed. But it isn’t an always a clean victimless crime. That’s the approach that I think you have to this. An affair is almost always so much more complicated than that.

Regardless of whether a ws deserves it, you still have no control or say in how they react to it. If I had divorced my husband, you would say that is hypocritical. I do not understand that logic. If I believed that my cheating was worthy of divorce but he didn’t execute it, and I still believe cheating is worthy of divorce so when he did it I decide to execute it, that is nothing but exercising a different reaction to the same stimulus.

I had a two month affair, conducted extremely long distance mostly by phone. He had an 18 month affair conducted with someone I knew in our house. I believe that regardless of whether she was married or he knew the bs, I could have every right to say there are elements to what happened that I am unwilling to accept.

I am not trying a case here because have accepted it and I am happy that we are still married. So this really isn’t about me- it’s about the idea that the original ws doesn’t have a right to react differently or feel justified pain in what they did.

In all reality if you choose to cheat, you do not get to determine your consequences just because the other person did it first. That only exists in the vaccumn of hypothetical scenarios that have been spun up to say the bs has the right to do anything they want now.

If he just hit me instead you would call perhaps that abuse. Infidelity is abuse. And if I abused him and he abused me, that is nothing more than mutual abuse regardless of who statrteenit. No one wins, no one feels good about it.

I think most of this straw man stuff boils down to the ba has a right towards emancipation and finding their empowerment. On that point I agree. In wwtl’s story, he didn’t abuse her back he separated from her and then spent some time sowing his oats. That’s very different than going out and having a revenge affair.

-he doesn’t have to justify a separation

-the cognitive dissonance is minimized because the only thing that might be a sticking point morally is if you believe you should be totally divorced first.

-if feelings were to become involved you are free to continue giving those feelings to the person you have now involved.

-you remain in control of your personal outcomes.

you are calling the original ws a victim but you do not see them as one. That’s okay, there is still plenty problematic even removing that idea the ws can not be a victim.

[This message edited by hikingout at 1:18 PM, Friday, February 7th]

hikingout- First, I want to commend you for your outstanding contributions to this discussion. You have really challenged me to develop my ideas on the topic, and I appreciate that.

Let me respond to your latest points.

The process of having an affair, regardless of the reason takes several elements:

-intent to deceive and self deception

-justifications to overcome cognitive dissonance

-involvement of a third party who will bring their own understanding to the situation that one has no control over.

-no in depth analysis that you are beginning a situation where little is actually in your control (how you will feel, how they will feel, how the bs will react)

-you give up control of your personal outcomes.

I assume you acknowledge that not all affairs involve all or any of these elements. In the hypotheticals I mentioned, I'm not convinced that intent to deceive or self-deception is necessary. While some of these factors could be potential outcomes, they certainly aren’t inevitable and would vary from situation to situation.

Similarly, I don't experience cognitive dissonance, as I believe that a revenge affair would be wholly justified within my own beliefs and morals. While it's true that a third party will be involved, this can be managed in a harmless way (as I pointed out about hook-up culture). Additionally, once you discover you’ve been a victim of an affair, you have already lost control. In fact, the scramble for control is likely what leads one to consider an RA in the first place.

So, I can completely understand why there is no empathy from you on the ws being betrayed. But it isn’t an always a clean victimless crime. That’s the approach that I think you have to this. An affair is almost always so much more complicated than that.

I agree, but you must concede that the opposite is also true. A revenge affair can indeed be conducted as a victimless crime—one can meet someone on Tinder looking for a hook-up, go dogging, or reconnect with a former friends-with-benefits who understands the dynamics at play.

I completely agree that this isn’t about control; you are free to act however you wish. However, that does not negate the element of hypocrisy in the situation. Suppose the affairs were of equal severity (which they clearly were not in your case), and you filed for divorce following a revenge affair, which was a response to his original infidelity. I genuinely believe the majority of people who knew the whole story would perceive this as hypocritical. They might think you initially wanted to work through the issue when you were at fault but were unwilling to extend that understanding to him.

While I can see someone arguing that the emotional toll is too great to continue the marriage and that divorce is warranted, I can’t understand how anyone could think that the original wayward spouse would be justified in initiating divorce, given that they cheated first.

To reiterate, while individuals undoubtedly have the ‘right’ to divorce, everyone is also accountable for the consequences of their actions. In this case, the consequence is being labeled a hypocrite, which I believe is justified (though, as mentioned, your situation isn’t really applicable based on our prior discussions).

If he just hit me instead you would call perhaps that abuse. Infidelity is abuse. And if I abused him and he abused me, that is nothing more than mutual abuse regardless of who statrteenit. No one wins, no one feels good about it.

I agreed but who started it actually does have a large impact. As noted with my punching the boss argument earlier. If you went to the police looking for justice in this scenario, they may well charge you for instigating it.

Also, to note, I do see the anyone who has been cheated on as a victim of infidelity yes. I have stated I have little sympathy for abusers being cheated on though. We concur, cheating is a form of abuse therefore an RA falls into that camp.

I hope this clarifies my points.

[This message edited by DRSOOLERS at 2:01 PM, Friday, February 7th]

Additionally, once you discover you’ve been a victim of an affair, you have already lost control. In fact, the scramble for control is likely what leads one to consider an RA in the first place.

But you do not regain control by creating more chaos. You regain control by thinking about what is best for you moving forward. If you believe that it’s best to have an affair to cope with pain, then you can not condemn the ws for not coping with their pain differently.

I think the crux is you and I disagree because you can’t fathom the ws being a victim in a revenge affair. Yet you are inflicting pain on someone who is already in a lot of pain and chaos. It is not victimless.

I can understand your point of view. There was one person here who upon discovering her husbands affair went out to a bar and had a one night stand immediately. Surely I can not argue her husband was in pain about that at a time that he was so checked out of the marriage. That close to dday he may have evn done the same the day prior.I can see and understand blind rage in that situation. But the bs in that circumstance was not healed by doing that. She regretted it, for a lot of reasons. Someone that fresh out of finding out has not had time to grieve anything.

And that’s what you have to also say - at what point in the grieving process is a revenge affair helpful? In denial? Bargaining? Probably not. Anger? So does dissipating your anger by leveling the playing field help the grieving process? Or does it make it harder because now you can’t sit with that anger and process it? So, point out to me where the affair would not either negate or prolong that needed process?

I agree, but you must concede that the opposite is also true. A revenge affair can indeed be conducted as a victimless crime—one can meet someone on Tinder looking for a hook-up, go dogging, or reconnect with a former friends-with-benefits who understands the dynamics at play.

Sorry I do not agree.

A person willing to have sex with a married person does not have the same boundaries or mental processing as someone who has sex with a single or at least separated person. Because a single person, especially a female can find plenty of single men to have sex with.

By agreeing to do it, they do not have the same moral boundaries as other people have. You have to guess they are at best lonely, desperate and likely to pair bond with you and at worst they know you are at a low point and are calculating how they might benefit from it. Basically you are increasing the risk of a Bunny boiler or an opportunist.

I don’t know about you but I don’t know anyone sane that would pick a married person who likely just wants to use you to feel better. There is likely a lot of complications you are inviting to your door. You have to ask why are they willing to do that? Something is off.

However, that does not negate the element of hypocrisy in the situation. Suppose the affairs were of equal severity (which they clearly were not in your case), and you filed for divorce following a revenge affair, which was a response to his original infidelity. I genuinely believe the majority of people who knew the whole story would perceive this as hypocritical. They might think you initially wanted to work through the issue when you were at fault but were unwilling to extend that understanding to him.

Sorry I do not see it this way at all.

I think ANYONE who has an affair has some idea their spouse can divorce them. Many ws here over the years and one that I can specifically think of who was reconciled admit that they didn’t even know reconciliation was a thing. They were completely floored when her husband seemed to want to do it.

As I said in my prior post, I would not have blamed him if he did want to divorce. That isn’t what he chose. But what the bs triggers in a ws (who by the way is likely a far more insecure person to begin with as evidenced by seeking validation externally with their AP) is an independent issue. If it’s fair for him to divorce over infidelity, it’s fair for me to divorce over infidelity. It’s not hypocritical to make a different decision.

What I might find hypocritical is the ws not giving the bs a fair settlement in all that. Demanding they pay more for cheating when they did it themselves.

Furthermore, a lot of ws don’t know what they want in the months after dday. They have spent a lot of time believing their justifications and they have checked out of the marriage to the extent they don’t know if they can reengage. While I am not saying that it is good or right, if you are a bs who wants to keep options open, an affair would likely confirm to the ws that it’s not worth saving. It’s not hypocritical to say there doesn’t seem to be anything else to save we are both not invested. So it could remove options the bs might want open regardless if you can agree on whether it’s hypocritical or not. There needs to be some recovery time so the bs has the ability to weigh their options and decide more fully what they want.

What most original ws do is underestimate the trauma they will inflict. They know the bs won’t like it, and they may lose the marriage but they do not often understand the trauma and that bs’s often suffer from PTSD. When a bs does it they know the trauma it inflicts because they have felt it. I understand the need to have the ws feel what they feel, it’s misguided to think that will happen. Everyone reacts differently to infidelity and there is no way for either of them to control that.

While I can see someone arguing that the emotional toll is too great to continue the marriage and that divorce is warranted, I can’t understand how anyone could think that the original wayward spouse would be justified in initiating divorce, given that they cheated first.

I disagree. I think often putting the onus on a shattered bs to file for divorce if you already know you are not willing to do the hard work ahead is cruel. If you want out, get out. It would have been far better to do that in the first place before you destroyed them but why drag it out giving them false hope? I have advised a number of ws to file just for the sake of at least it provides closure to. Situation nd frees the bs to heal ether thn being subjected to further bullshit.

I think it’s hypocritical to say "I believe affairs are wrong. You need to come up to the moral code that I have" but then do it yourself. In my mind, the minute my husband unzipped his pants for the Ap his moral standing over me vanished.

It’s not fair but if the goal is to reconcile, then do not give your ws anything that puts you in an equal moral standing. If you cheat too, you hve lowered your standards for the marriage and the ws will never see you as holding the standard you want them to step up to.

If you don’t want to reconcile, then do whatever you want. I think one will feel better to wait to have sex hen they re undoubtedly free to do so. Personally, I think that point is okay at separation if you have add your intentions clear. Others would feel the divorce needed to happen. I just have that standard because at a that point you are betraying Noone and you can walk away knowing you honored yourself and your beliefs with conviction.

So again, in wwtl’s story it makes sens e to me he doesn’t have regrets about his conquests during his separation. And if that gave him confidence he did it without betraying his convictions. And, his playmates so to speak are probably better quality choices because they are not someone who necessarily would sleep with someone in an active marriage.

Only lonely, desperate people sleep with other peoples spouses behind their back, I know because I was one.

I agreed but who started it actually does have a large impact. As noted with my punching the boss argument earlier. If you went to the police looking for justice in this scenario, they may well charge you for instigating it.

Well let’s say you are in a state that doesn’t do no fault divorces. Which it sounds like more states may start that practice. Be a bs that goes to a judge wanting a better settlement because of adultry. Guess what? The ws can now claim the same so I don’t see your point here. Again, the bs keeps the most power by keeping in the side of their own standards. It’s a big ole hypocrite for one to cry adultry is wrong and then go ahead and do it themselves under your arguments.

(I personally do not feel that the bs is a hypocrite. Just broken. I am stating it the way I am to show you the straw man of your argument)

But I also think a ws is broken. The difference is the ws can not claim any moral superiority from the moment they cheat. The bs holding that superiority puts them in in a better postion. They can always go get different sex if they want, just give the ws the boot.

[This message edited by hikingout at 3:54 PM, Friday, February 7th]

I did not consider a RA, but as I got into shape and my self esteem came back I wanted my W to know that I had opportunities to cheat, but didn’t. I wanted her jealous of my personal, mental, and physical transformation. It got to a point I was detached and cocky, she was afraid I would leave. For a period I enjoyed watching her squirm, walk on eggshells, and not know if I would come home one day and end the M. I treated her like an AP, she was a stranger in my home.
Thankfully as I healed I leveled her up in the M, made communication a priority and have had a few good years of R so far. The personal and physical growth is something I have held on to, it has changed my life for the better. I am much more successful now than I was prior to Dday.

@hikingout

I probably would have taken it harder had he did it first. Not for the reasons you might guess though. You seem to think I would have been more accepting because I did it first and fair is fair. But if I hit him first and then he hit me, what would you say? That it didn’t hurt because I started it? No, he probably can hit harder and he sort of did.

No, not saying that it wouldn't hurt at all, but rather that it hurt less than it would have had he had done it first. Similarly, I'm not saying that the RA would be justified or wouldn't cause some deep emotional wounds to you, but rather that you would consider the RA to be less wrong and the wounds less deep than if he had done it first.

Quite simply, I am trying to determine if people here believe that the WS's remorse for their original A has an anodyne effect on the negative impact that an RA has on the WS in terms of pain, moral injury, emotional and psychological damage, etc. Personally I think that it does and that it's plainly self evident that it does. However, from reading this thread and some others it seems like that many people might not believe that? maybe? I'm not quite sure so I wanted to ask you since you have experience with this.

To be clear, I am NOT saying that an RA is a good thing and I personally do not believe it to be a good thing. I am NOT saying that a remorseful WS must or should incur less damage from an RA than if it had happened first, but rather that remorseful WSes generally do take less damage from an RA. I am not making a moral judgment or any kind of judgment, I am saying that I have observed a phenomenon(which I believe to be fairly obvious) and asking you if you have experienced it (or rather if you believe you've experienced it).

What probably made it a bit easier for me was I knew as the ws my affair had nothing to do with him. It was in no way a statement of who he was or what he had to offer. So I think it only softened the blow that I knew that his affair had nothing to do with me. Other than I inflicted the pain he couldn’t deal with.

But he had other options on how to cope with that pain. Just like I had other options on how to cope with the pain I was in at the time of my affair.

I imagine if he had an affair first and wanted to work it out, it might have taken me longer to get over but I probably would have still chosen to try.

Who I was before that three years of work would have been more fragile, less emotionally mature, less educated on affairs.

Here it sounds like you might be agreeing but if so only implicitly, as such I am asking explicitly. Because here instead of remorse you mention that it was the work you had done on understanding affairs which "softened the blow" and not necessarily remorse itself.

Just to make sure my question isn't getting lost in the other discussions taking place: I am not asking for the RA to be compared to the original A, I am not asking for the WS's experience to be compared to the BS's experience. I am asking for the WS's experience of the RA to be compared to itself had the RA occurred first. I.e.:

All else equal, do you feel that a remorseful WS, purely as a matter of being remorseful, incurs less damage from an RA than if it had happened first(in which case remorse would be absent since the remorseful WS would just be a BS)

Apologies if I've been offensive; asking you about detailed nuances from your darkest times can't be a happy experience, especially when I'm also asking you to be a bit of a lab rat .

Here it sounds like you might be agreeing but if so only implicitly, as such I am asking explicitly. Because here instead of remorse you mention that it was the work you had done on understanding affairs which "softened the blow" and not necessarily remorse itself.

First, I was in no way offended. My answer was just matter of fact and I did make some assumptions on your position. However, even if that had truly been your position, it would still not have offended me. If I came off in any other way that was not my intention. It was moreso that is generally the position I see and that is my normal response to it.

But I do not get offended about what a person thinks about what I did or about ws in general. I hate cheating as much as anyone here. After all, I just spent 6-7 years dealing with it. its Just never worth it.

It’s so hypothetical that I am not really sure I can answer your question. But I will try.

First, I do not think my remorse has a lot to do with how I handled my husbands affair. Maybe on the fringes in that I can clearly see that I caused him a great deal of pain. And that pain was what he was struggling with that went into his affair.

However, I think a person who has an affair has always had the things inside them that can make it possible. It’s just a ticking time bomb as to when it will go off. Because in all reality, people who are strongly against affairs will not go through with one. There are plenty of bs here that have not done it.l The contemplation is natural. But someone who cheats on my opinion is capable of it in more than one circumstance.

When I said worked on myself, I am talking about learning about becoming more self aware. Learning to give myself internal validation. Finding ways to be responsible for and creating my own happiness. Learning to accept myself. Learning boundaries. Building my character around a deep analysis of what I want my values to be and the reasons behind it. Being intentional in understanding my needs and improving my communication. And learning to be okay no matter the outcome of my marriage, which was necessary because I had to see I was not in control of that. I am only in control of myself.

So without that work, my reaction would have been more shattered. More afraid of the future. I had already adjusted to the idea of what I would need to be if he divorced me. When I had my affair I don’t think either of us had even considered divorce or believed we ever would. So, I know he had to deal with shockwaves of my breaking the marriage. Since the marriage was not fully mended it wasn’t the same for me. He’d asked me for a divorce in month ten, so we’d been to the edge already.

I also knew first hand how much affairs are complete bullshit LaLa land nonsense. I was of the position he too would need to figure that out and if he did he would look at that time of his life as a miserable, disgusting thing. So maybe my remorse did help me believe in the power of it. I just waited to see if he would get there. I believed he would alot of the time which is a faith a typical bs might not have. I know he has a lot of good in him. He just got lost much in the same way I did.

So I do agree that I took it less hard than I would have had his happened before mine.

While I still went through the grief and loss of who I thought he was, I had a better sense of who I am and what I was made of so I had more confidence I would be okay than I would have before.

I didn’t feel obligated through my remorse to work it out. I had been on a trajectory of trying to save our marriage for those years that part of me wasn’t ready to say the fight was over. Certainly I would move in and out of that; it was a rollercoaster. There were other moments I was sure I was ready to move on and get a divorce. After all, if either of us could not stay loyal really what was the point anymore?

I think for some ws it maybe they haven’t fallen back in love with their bs yet. They have to unwind their justifications and it takes a while for the couple to feel bonded again.

That was not my issue. I felt we were bonded. Maybe not solid, but I was very in love with him at the time of his affair. When I had mine we were very disconnected and living pretty separate lives. I saw him for a few minutes before falling asleep and most of the time he wanted to talk about our businesses.

My behavior in the affair was erratic, he knew something was very wrong. During his, nothing seemed off to me. It was deep below the surface. He seemed normal. So I still had plenty if shockwaves to believe had he cheated first I am pretty sure we would still be married today. Well, as long as he was as willing as he was to admit that he had issues that he needed to work on.

I think the work I did as the ws is a lot of the same work bs do to heal themselves as well. So I had healed some things that were no longer an issue by the time I found out. And so all and all I had many advantages but not all the advantages that’s why I think I still would have tried to work it out.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:41 AM, Saturday, February 8th]

@hikingout

First, I was in no way offended. My answer was just matter of fact and I did make some assumptions on your position. However, even if that had truly been your position, it would still not have offended me. If I came off in any other way that was not my intention. It was moreso that is generally the position I see and that is my normal response to it.

You did not come off in some other way! I was just trying to preempt any potential understanding because if you look at my questions even a little bit out of context they would come across as insultingly presumptuous even in the most permissive conversational environments in polite society.

It’s so hypothetical that I am not really sure I can answer your question. But I will try.

Right, your situation had quite a lot of moving parts, wide differences in length and intensity of affairs, different mindsets of both BS and WS during A and RA, etc. That's actually why I tried asking in the hypothetical, because I was trying to control or ignore all the other variables so that I could focus just on remorse.

I think maybe a simpler example might work better so let's go with the classic eye for an eye example. Lets wind back the clock to before any affairs happened. hikingout and Mrhikingout are drinking and have a heated argument that spirals out of control, hikingout slaps Mrhikingout and tears his cornea in one eye. Mrhikingout slaps hikingout back and gives her the same corneal tear in one eye. They then say sorry to each other and take an uber to the ER. In parallel universe of hikingout2 and Mrhikingout2 everything progresses exactly the same way except that Mrhikingout2 slaps hikingout2 first and gives her the same corneal tear as the previous pair. hikingout2 does not hit back, Mrhikingout says sorry to hikingout2 and they take an uber to the ER.

I am claiming that if hikingout is remorseful for striking first, hikingout is always going to feel less bad about Mrhikingout's slap than hikingout2 will feel about Mrhikingout2's slap. I feel that this is simply how human remorse works and it is not just for affairs or slaps but any negative ACTION and SAME_ACTION_AS_RESPONSE pair between two people.

p.s. I wanted to keep it relatable so I kept you in the hypothetical but that means I've not just made you into more of a lab rat, but also one experiencing violence across dimensions. Sorry if I have overstepped.

@hikingout

When I said worked on myself, I am talking about learning about becoming more self aware. Learning to give myself internal validation. Finding ways to be responsible for and creating my own happiness. Learning to accept myself. Learning boundaries. Building my character around a deep analysis of what I want my values to be and the reasons behind it. Being intentional in understanding my needs and improving my communication. And learning to be okay no matter the outcome of my marriage, which was necessary because I had to see I was not in control of that. I am only in control of myself.

Would you mind giving your thoughts on the internal/external validation divide? I posted earlier that I felt Sisoon's stance

To the extent that happens, it's because the RA feeds a need for external validation - and any need for external validation in an adult is unhealthy.

One of the problems - one of the illusions - BSes need to deal with is that they've placed a lot of their self-esteem on the shoulders of their partners - partners who have betrayed them. Whether they realize it or not, they've probably come to feel the external validation they get from their partner is necessary. A BS can't heal without learning they'll be OK without external validation from anyone, much less from their WS. To heal, a BS need to learn to validate themself, even though they may not use that terminology.

felt too strict. After doing some more reading, it seems that's the viewpoint of many people here. For example, ChamomileTea seems to express similarly strong views in her bio. Or perhaps there is a sticky post or megathread where this is discussed? since this topic seems like the kind that would warrant that kinda treatment.

So in the slapping example, I can see where you are going with it.

Generally speaking, I did not feel obligated at all to stay in my marriage even though I cheated. Forget that he did it. Let’s look at that isolated. Yes, I genuinely regret what I did, and I have deep remorse for what I did to him. But that did not bind me to him. The process of that decision gets forged in steel when you truly put all the good, bad, ugly in the table and truly make decisions about what you want moving forward and have a deep sense of why.

My whys were not my remorse or need to make things right. My whys were that he has been my best friend, we share sensibilities, we have grown a beautiful family that only the two of us will fully appreciate, we share a s history, we are sexually compatible, we are compatible in lots of other ways. And though it got ragged and torn the love we have for each other is still very much there and deeper than ever. I could go on.

If he had done it first those things would still be true.

So if I tried to use your slap analogy - If I had done the slap first, I would have understood the emotions he felt when he slapped. But because we didn’t like what happened we would need to look at root cause and work on that for it to be truly resolved.

I guess it boils down to- in life there are lots of things we do not have compassion for, until we go through them. My middle kid criticized my older kid on some of her parenting choices. Now my middle kid is a parent and now understands how hard it is and now identifies with the older one.

So I guess what I am trying to say is while I hate what I did I still needed to accept it and show myself compassion in order to heal. So when he did it, I simply understood it better and while I still had to go through the pain of it, I had that same compassion to give. I don’t think it’s as simple as an eye for an eye, or remorse, it’s more I understood it better than had I not done it.

Our relationship with ourself and our experience always mirrors back to our relationship with others.

But had he done it first, I would not have had that. It would have been harder for him to get me to see what happened and harder for me to identify with it. It would have just taken longer. But the variables about staying together (assuming there had been remorse) would be the same. That’s why I am fairly certain I would have chosen R, absent of knowing any variables involved.

So the only advantage one has in understanding another is the degree to which they experienced it. Do I feel terrible to be the one who started it? Yes absolutely. But I do not feel it obligates me. The assessment of staying married should never be about owing someone. Be there because you want to be there because you have true reasons. Otherwise that’s just staying married and I think for a lot of people that’s going to run out gas. The people who are happy in their new marriage after infidelity came to many understandings about what they wanted out of a marriage, out of themselves, and they have truly designed a deeper more satisfying relationship with themselves and their partner.

That’s why I stayed as both the ws and the bs. Remorse really doesn’t play into it, other than it’s a fundamental requirement for the equation to work. The person needs to understand the damage they caused, understand the hundreds of decisions they made were wrong, and fix the things that made it possible. That’s the purpose of remorse. It is not tied to the outcome of the marriage. Even if I had gotten divorced the remorse would always be there.

I think the part you see that you are trying to put your finger on when the ws becomes a bs is we have experienced it. We know what it is. An affair is not a totally blissful experience, it’s a complicated experience with very deep pitfalls. Did I get high? And did it feel good? Yes. But escapism is a mask for the river of turmoil that roared underneath. You can’t understand it until you do it. Or how much you hate yourself afterwards. Or the struggle to calm the shame and find your way back to loving yourself.

Which leads me to your questions about validation.

So bottom line of what sissoon is saying is that the ws can’t heal the bs just by showing them all the love and adoration. Convincing my husband of my love and commitment was very much needed to heal the marriage. But that’s not what heal d him. He had to work through that himself. All the past trauma and insecurities I made raw from the affair were always there underneath, the affair just brought them to a crisis mode. And loving himself is more important than loving me. The person you are in a romantic relationship with could come and go? You have to shore up what would remain.

Example- as the ws the reason I was starved for connection going into my affair is I didn’t feel worthy to receive it. As I mentioned before, our relationship with ourselves is reflected back in our relationship with others.

If we use other people to prop that up, then all that happens is we need more and more of it to keep it at a good level.

So as the bs is we look at what our ws is giving, and that’s what we are basing how we see ourselves then the expectations of what the ws shows you is going to need to escalate for it to have the same effect. It’s empty without knowing your worth.

What healing requires is to say "I will be okay without them". Then set out on a journey to make your own happiness, to appreciate yourself, to love yourself. To make your words kinder and more nurturing towards yourself. To see your value as an individual.

It’s at this point the relationship is a nice complement to your life. Something to enjoy and appreciate. And if they won’t step up to the plate and be the person you need, you will naturally shed them. I am not saying that process won’t come with pain. But the pain of not doing it will become greater than the pain to make the change.

This is why these arguments about artificial ways of feeling better like having an RA are not what is truly helpful to the bs. First and foremost, it continues the narrative that someone else needs to make you feel better, which is impossible. And secondly, both the ws and the bs need to go through that process in order to have a marriage that feels like it’s worth staying in after such a catastrophic and tragic event as infidelity.

So while sissoon’s statement feels strict, I agree with it. It’s a statement about individual healing. I do think everyone enjoys validation and it’s something that adds joy to our experience. We just can’t have the validation others give us as our main nutrition source for our self esteem.

In fact, think about the times that you were down or depressed and others tried to cheer you up or said nice things to you. They didn’t resonate as strongly as when you felt good about yourself and agreed with what they were saying.

To heal the relationship that it does not take the onus off the ws to make amends and to become a safe partner.

A remorseful ws that does this will appreciate you and the marriage above anything else. I strive to do something good for my husband every single day. Not always elaborate but it could be do something in his burdened to do list without being asked, make his favorite foods, say sexy or loving things to him, kiss him goodbye and hello, initiate sex and give him some good loving. He does the same for me.

Appreciation comes with the investment and effort you put into it. I also do nice things for me, keep connected with myself and what I want. I put my oxygen mask on first so to speak. If you live yourself you have it to give. If you are kind to yourself you will be kind to others. If you respect yourself you will respect others. Everything flows from our relationship with ourselves. If we look for other people to fill hole, the hole will only grow deeper. And that’s how I cheated. That’s how my husband cheated. That’s why I think Sissoon and chamomile tea are some of the wisest cats around. I would add a lot more names to that but I am afraid I would miss someone. There are a lot of people here that understand that concept.

[This message edited by hikingout at 4:34 PM, Saturday, February 8th]